Trump with a bower from S2, 1st trick?

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raydog
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Trump with a bower from S2, 1st trick?

Unread post by raydog » Tue May 03, 2022 8:52 pm

I believe this play is generally discouraged [trumping the 1st trick with a bower in S2], but I am interested in the exceptions to this rule. I think I have found a couple:

1) partner as dealer has declared, and you, in S2, have an unguarded L. This offers several advantages. It lets partner know where the L is; it precludes your L being wasted if dealer wins the first trick and leads the R (maybe they have an off-suit A to protect); it allows you to make a good lead to your partner should they throw off on the 1st trick.

2) the opponents have bid and you, in S2, have an unguarded L. Would hate to see one of the opponents take the trick, then lead the R! Sure, S3 may over-trump you with the R, but the odds of that are surely lower than the previous scenario.

There are of course scenarios when you should definitely play off. If you have L+1 (guarded L), best to save that bower for later - dealer may well win that 1st trick anyway, and you are guarded against having to play your L should ANY other player lead the R.

And if you have only the singleton R, it's going to win at some point anyway. Better to give dealer the chance to win the 1st trick, and maybe they'll lead a low trump to your R.

Question to the experts - are there any other scenarios I should be testing?



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Dlan
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Unread post by Dlan » Tue May 03, 2022 10:08 pm

raydog wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 8:52 pm
And if you have only the singleton R, it's going to win at some point anyway. Better to give dealer the chance to win the 1st trick, and maybe they'll lead a low trump to your R.
In a case where your partner sits in first and names trump. They lead a low off suit. Second plays the ace, you sit in third, holding only the right and no aces. In these situations have always felt compelled to use the right. But I've wondered if it was the correct play?

Thoughts?

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Tue May 03, 2022 11:06 pm

No, no no Ray, An Unguarded Left you MUST ALWAYS TRUMP A TRICK LED BY S1. I think most good players understand this and not an unknown that I know about.

Left guarded is a different story. 1) What's the up card? 2) Do you need two points? 3) Can you create a void if you slough? 4) Do you have an off suit ace? 5) How does your partner play, aggressive or conservative? 6) How does S1 play - does he lead from 3 if he gets the chance? 7) Is it an Ace?
Trumping in just all depends here and you must consider these variables, IMO.

LEFT UNGUARDED at S3 for the very reason that you will lose more often than not it if the Dealer takes the trick. But not if you hold the Right should you ever trump on the first trick? i SAY NEVER. The Right is for winning tricks when trump is led or over trumping the Left or Ace as needed.

THE RIGHT: Seldom should you use the Right to trump the first trick. Perhaps if an Ace is led. However, I say especially if you can create a void or if you have an off-suit Ace singleton or doubleton. Now if you do not have an Ace or cannot create a Void then it's (borderline) Okay to trump. Why either your partner will have 2 + Ace or three trumps. Then it's safe to trump. You will win more Sweeps like this. You also must consider how your partner plays as well as do we just need 1 point?

Those are my rules of play. Other may play differently. Versus the happy triggers or the hold the bowers forever!

IRISH

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri May 06, 2022 4:10 pm

There are a lot of scenario's besides seat 2 holdings. Say seat 3 or seat 1 as well but we will address this as if you are asking in terms of from Seat 2 only.

Generally speaking now. I'll deal with specific cases later. If you have bare right in seat 2 and seat 4(dealer) ordered. I am 100 precent of the time never trumping in with the Right bauer 9x-Kx. I am sometimes trumping in on an Ace not trump lead from seat 1. There are times I do gamble on letting it go.

With having the bare left in seat 2. The majority of time you want to always trump in with it to show your partner and to establish your teams first trick. If seat 3 over trumps you with the right. Your partner(maker) will be very happy as it will undoubtedly strengthen the chances your team will make point with both bauers falling on the opening trick.


If you have left-x in seat 2 with no aces. Trump High and send low. if you have 1 off ace. It is still acceptable to trump high and send low but you now can also trump low in hopes sending the left and then leading your ace and hopes your partner(dealer) can now further short-suit themselves and have a better shot at making two points. If you have two off aces. You should be definitely trumping High with the Left and sending low because now it is likely when your partner gets the lead. You are better situated to take their loser off suit and a very high probability of a March with that second Ace.



Now let's look at some situations that one may play differently. Lets say the score is at 9-9 or 7-9, 8-9, 8-8, or x-8. All these hands fall in a general category but the reasonings for doing these plays may be different for each one. Even though the play is similar in nature.

By in large when dealer is calling at these scores they are doing so out of necessity. They have to call something. Very, Very rarely dealers should be passing at these scores if it gets to them.

So lets say when you have the bare right. You have carefully follow the hand and see whats being played. You really want your partner to get the lead and lead trump but perhaps they can't so you may have to wait for the right time to play it. This is where counting cards, trumps and hand reading really comes into play. Also understanding the situation and your partner and why they are calling and "x" score.

Now the same thing can be said about left-x but honestly. S2 should be ordering with Left-x 100 percent of the time in all situations with the exception of the x-8 and where you have a second round call because you don't want to mess up a possible loner in these x-8 range hands where a loner is needed.

Having the bare left in all these scenario's is the same as the general rule of thumb I first talked about. You will always want to take the first trick. Sure there will be times it will be your partners ace and it will suck. Especially when they are calling thin. Don't let this make you think twice because far too often you will help the majority of the time verse hurting.


Tbolt65
Edward

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri May 06, 2022 4:17 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 11:06 pm
No, no no Ray, An Unguarded Left you MUST ALWAYS TRUMP A TRICK LED BY S1. I think most good players understand this and not an unknown that I know about.

Yep

Left guarded is a different story. 1) What's the up card? 2) Do you need two points? 3) Can you create a void if you slough? 4) Do you have an off suit ace? 5) How does your partner play, aggressive or conservative? 6) How does S1 play - does he lead from 3 if he gets the chance? 7) Is it an Ace?
Trumping in just all depends here and you must consider these variables, IMO.

Yep

LEFT UNGUARDED at S3 for the very reason that you will lose more often than not it if the Dealer takes the trick. But not if you hold the Right should you ever trump on the first trick? i SAY NEVER. The Right is for winning tricks when trump is led or over trumping the Left or Ace as needed.

Yep,use that left asap. As for the right in seat 3, there are time you do need to trump in on the first trick Non Ace your partner leads from seat 1. You can catch them in a ping pong effect with your partner. Especially if dealer called light.

THE RIGHT: Seldom should you use the Right to trump the first trick. Perhaps if an Ace is led. However, I say especially if you can create a void or if you have an off-suit Ace singleton or doubleton. Now if you do not have an Ace or cannot create a Void then it's (borderline) Okay to trump. Why either your partner will have 2 + Ace or three trumps. Then it's safe to trump. You will win more Sweeps like this. You also must consider how your partner plays as well as do we just need 1 point?

Yep

Those are my rules of play. Other may play differently. Versus the happy triggers or the hold the bowers forever!

IRISH

I play slightly differently than you at times but I agree for the most part in everything you said here is spot on.



Tbolt65
Edward

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri May 06, 2022 4:26 pm

Dlan wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 10:08 pm
raydog wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 8:52 pm
And if you have only the singleton R, it's going to win at some point anyway. Better to give dealer the chance to win the 1st trick, and maybe they'll lead a low trump to your R.
In a case where your partner sits in first and names trump. They lead a low off suit. Second plays the ace, you sit in third, holding only the right and no aces. In these situations have always felt compelled to use the right. But I've wondered if it was the correct play?

Thoughts?
It's situational. This is a Yes and No answer. You can honestly play both ways. It is just going to depend on the situation.

Tbolt65
Edward

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