2-18-22 OE Friday

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Dlan
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2-18-22 OE Friday

Unread post by Dlan » Sat Feb 19, 2022 12:30 pm

This week's Friday euchre was one of the more interesting nights we've had in a while. There were some great plays along with a few misplays. WoCG was overly generous in handing out lones. Everyone had their chance to try one. Many were successful. There was even a game that was won in only 3 hands.

Come join in. New players are always welcome.

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irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:50 pm

Yes, this was Game 2, Hand 1, a loner because someone needs serious Coaching on how to play their hand to stop a loner. That was a loner that should never have been. Check it Out!

This is There was even a game that was won in only 3 hands.

You can't have a successful Win/Loss record giving up unnecessary Loners.

IRISH

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Sat Feb 19, 2022 10:30 pm

Okay, you are sitting in S1, JC up and you hold KH 9H TS QS AD.Dealer goes alone, what should you lead to the 1st trick as your best defense in terms of stopping the March?

irish

P.S. ACTUAL
S1 KH TS 9H QS AD
S3 JH JD TD KS JD
S4 AH JC JS AC QH
Last edited by irishwolf on Sun Feb 20, 2022 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

raydog
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Unread post by raydog » Sun Feb 20, 2022 3:09 pm

I don't see the link to access the play of the hand.

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Dlan
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Unread post by Dlan » Sun Feb 20, 2022 9:10 pm


Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Feb 21, 2022 3:22 am

irishwolf wrote:
Sat Feb 19, 2022 10:30 pm
Okay, you are sitting in S1, JC up and you hold KH 9H TS QS AD.Dealer goes alone, what should you lead to the 1st trick as your best defense in terms of stopping the March?

irish

P.S. ACTUAL
S1 KH TS 9H QS AD
S3 JH JD TD KS JD
S4 AH JC JS AC QH
This is one of those spots I see strong players disagree on. You have one camp that says "never lead a single ace vs a loner" period for reasons we've talked about before: If your P has two aces, leading that single ace will force him to guess on 4th street possibly throwing away a good ace + If your P has a void and a trump, leading that single ace denies him a chance to trump in on the lead and save the day that way.

The counter-argument goes like this: When we have an off ace + (K9 or KT) in another suit we should treat that K9/KT as equivalent to an off ace as K9/KT can stop all suited aces. So the idea is don't lead your King from a K9/KT set right off the bat cuz then you get owned by every single suited ace except A9 vs your KT. Instead preserve your guarded king for the last 2 streets and lead the off ace first. But what about those times your P has too off aces??!! Isn't this line gonna force him to still guess which ace to hold/get rid of on 4th street? The answer is not if your P is a good hand reader. Since we are holding our Kh9h til the end, when we play our 9h on 4th street that will signal to our P that we are covering hearts on 5th street so then an expert P will know to throw away the AH on 4th street and keep the AS.

I already know how Irishwolf would play this spot becuz I've studied his game. He would lead the off ace (AD) and hold the Kh9h til the end. And I agree with him that that is the best strategy. This hand configuration is an exception to the rule of "never lead a single ace vs a loner". I would still like to see this spot tested tho. I also wonder if leading our single ace here is the best strategy against players that have a really tight loner range meaning they are significantly less likely to even have an outside suited ace. For example, there are a few women in my tournament who are only going alone with a suited ace when they have precisely JJX, even with AJX-(AQ) they are still just calling. Against that tight of a loner range it may be best to revert back to the "never lead a single ace" strategy and instead lead that off King hoping our P can trump in and catch the maker's off ace in that suit. IDK just a thought, but this unique scenario would not apply to the monday/friday night euchre games as everyone is sufficiently aggressive on their loners.

raydog
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Unread post by raydog » Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:52 am

Very astute! It never even crossed my mind to lead the ace, but now it makes perfect sense. It's one of those instances of communication by default that comes up in bridge a lot ("My partner led an Ace but doesn't have two of them because I have two of them, therefore I can infer...") I'm adding this my list of a thousand and one infrequent but critical strategies to employ in euchre.

I can't really test the case where S4 is really tight with loners to see if the slight chance of S3 trumping a Spade is greater than the sight chance of an Ace winning the last trick because I can't easily simulate that different strategy by S4.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Mon Feb 21, 2022 10:39 am

Testing is not important on this. Here is why:

What you are doing is treating the KH/9H as close to being an Ace. And you don't lead the 9H because you will Squeeze yourself. Statistically, in terms of stopping a loner, lead the AD and save your doubleton. Then start sloughing those spades at first opportunity so your partner (signals) can save spades. And if the Dealer only has a singleton Heart you catch it. If he only has the AH it makes no difference that you led the AD first.

So what about squeezing your partner with AS/AH? Well, consider that S1 has to play first to trick 4 so squeezing him is not a factor. Playing the 9H means he has a doubleton heart.

Although leading a Spade (Next) might seem as a good lead, you have to consider the Probability that S3, has a Void and then has to have a trump and Dealer has spades. Or S3 has a high enough trump that spoils his March. That probability is less than 15%. And to even think of keeping Spades to cover a doubleton - only covers the 9S.

IRISH

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Feb 21, 2022 1:50 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 10:39 am
Testing is not important on this. Here is why:

...And if the Dealer only has a singleton Heart you catch it. If he only has the AH it makes no difference that you led the AD first.
It does make a difference tho. If the dealer only has the AH, S1 would be better off leading the KH as there's still a chance his P could be void in hearts and trump in on the first lead. This is why I wonder about this spot against S4 players with really tight loner ranges who won't have nearly as many outside suited aces as normal. That's kind of an unimportant tangent tho. Again I agree with the overall strategy here that leading the AD is best.

Funny story, I've been in this spot on the app when I had a relatively strong partner. Twice in the last year I got berated the instant I led my single ace as they both had 2 off aces so they knew I was making a "mistake". Both times I tried to explain to them that this was an exception to the rule but I was not successful. I further tried to explain to them that they should never question a legend. Amazingly that latter approach is batting 1000 at convincing no one ever 😀

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