Fri 12-3 hd. 4

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Tbolt65
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Fri 12-3 hd. 4

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:50 pm

A missed opportunity. This is what happens when you forget to count trump and what was ordered and seeing what was played.

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Tbolt65
Edward



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LeftyK
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Unread post by LeftyK » Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:48 pm

I don't see it. Calling team made their point for 9-9.

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:35 pm

LeftyK wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:48 pm
I don't see it. Calling team made their point for 9-9.
It should be game over. Go back and look. How do you get the euchre here?


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Edward

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:38 pm

Bad playing by S1 he leads a diamond and they trump it, S3 plays the a diamond and S2 leads JC, S3 plays AS - then S1 leads another diamond. Totally the wrong card to lead. Lead the heart. Then S3 can lead a club for the Euchre & game.

IRISH

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:51 am

LeftyK wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:48 pm
I don't see it. Calling team made their point for 9-9.
Calling team doesn't make their point however if S1 plays this spot well. Before S1's decision point on 3rd street it can be deduced in real time that the enemy has a total of 2 trump left, 1 in the maker's hand and 1 in S4's hand. When that is the case the unequivocal correct play for S1 is to lead his trump taking out both opponents' trump in one lead and then from that point hope for off-suit chaos which would've happened in this hand. That's how you play for the euchre in this spot. If S1 doesn't lead trump then he allows his opponents to see-saw with each of their trump for an easy point. BTW this is not some rare, trivial spot. This spot comes up all the time. And the best players in the world who always play for the euchre recognize this spot instantly and gleefully lead trump.

BTW I would say the main weak point of the monday/friday night games is people generally don't know how to play for euchres. The play on defense is poor to mediocre. But that's expected. One can study their way to playing offense well without playing that many hands imo. But I don't think that's the case when it comes to elite defense. To play defense at a top level one simply has to get the hands in, and by that I mean probably 10s of thousands of games of experience in, making all the inevitable mistakes along the way combined with constant critical thought on all the various "play for the euchre" spots to clean up those mistakes. That's a pretty tough ask if you think about it. Most people have a life. They don't have time to play that many hands/games. And for those that do, odds are they are not gonna care enough to correct their systematic mistakes and I can't blame them. It takes a strange kind've cat to take euchre THAT seriously. :)

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:23 am

leading the KD only benefits the maker(s), and the Dealer still has the upcard KS and certainly S2 has another trump.

Think about it Lefty!

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LeftyK
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Unread post by LeftyK » Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:15 pm

I see it now, and I'm leading the singleton heart there S1. So Wes, you are saying double lead trumps S1 and hope s3 keeps their AQ doubleton for the euchre when s4 has to lead 4th street ?? I am going to start holding more doubletons on defense then. I guess that even though s1 didn't make a good opening lead, they still have a chance to wreak havoc and a possible euchre. I need to study this hand more.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:34 pm

LeftyK wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:15 pm
I see it now, and I'm leading the singleton heart there S1.
I'm confused. Can't tell if you are talking about what to lead on 1st street or 3rd street. My post was directed towards what to lead on 3rd street given how the hand transpired. As said leading trump to take out 2 enemy trump in one lead is the unequivocally correct play. Leading a heart on 3rd street would be wrong. If you don't lead trump you just allow the enemy to nickel and dime you for an easy point the vast majority of time.

If you are talking about what to lead on first street, I do think leading the singleton heart is better than leading either diamond. I would rather hold the KdJd back as leading a diamond opens S1 up to getting owned those times AdQd is in S2 or S4's hand. Statistically speaking, I don't know if that's really a big deal. Like I wouldn't be surprised at all if a good simulation showed there was no statistical difference between those leads. That said, I do believe leading the singleton heart on first street is better than leading either diamond.
LeftyK wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:15 pm
So Wes, you are saying double lead trumps S1 and hope s3 keeps their AQ doubleton for the euchre when s4 has to lead 4th street ?? I am going to start holding more doubletons on defense then. I guess that even though s1 didn't make a good opening lead, they still have a chance to wreak havoc and a possible euchre. I need to study this hand more.
I did not say to double lead trump from S1, I was talking about what S1 should do on 3rd street given how the hand transpired. But you are now bringing up another topic I am interested in! For instance, those times S1 has R+1 (with the exception of A-J) against a S2-R1 call, I DO BELIEVE S1 leading the Right with the intention of leading trump again on 2nd street those time's S1 thinks there's a good chance S4 has another trump, is the best play, I.E. the play that maximizes euchres. So that's what I would do in this hand, but that's merely a hypothesis. I don't really know if that line is best as I have never tested that spot, and for the record that spot is definitely testable.

The idea of course is to take out a S2 call's greatest ally, the fact that he has a partner, S4, who is guaranteed to have at least 1 trump. And those times S4 has 2 trump and S1 takes out both of them with a savvy double trump lead, IOW those times S1 takes out 4 enemy trump on the first two leads...that's a coup for S1's team. S4 was set to help out his P big time and S1 eliminated that from happening. After that it will come down to off-suit chaos and defense loves chaos!! IMO that's the best way to play for the euchre in this spot, but keep in mind everything changes if S4 made the call. In that case leading the Right from this configuration would usually just be playing right into enemy hands. What we're talking about here is how to attack a S2-R1 call only. Even attacking a S2-R2 call is different becuz now S4 is no longer guaranteed to hold at least 1 trump.

Anyways, like I mentioned already, how to attack a S2-R1 call with S1's hand configuration on street 1 is still in hypothesis mode, but what S1 should do on 3rd street given how the hand transpired is not up for debate imo. It is imperative that S1 lead trump in that spot taking out both remaining enemy trump with 1 lead. To do otherwise will lead to certain death almost every time.

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:33 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:34 pm


Anyways, like I mentioned already, how to attack a S2-R1 call with S1's hand configuration on street 1 is still in hypothesis mode, but what S1 should do on 3rd street given how the hand transpired is not up for debate imo. It is imperative that S1 lead trump in that spot taking out both remaining enemy trump with 1 lead. To do otherwise will lead to certain death almost every time.

"That's the Ticket laddy" -- Montgomery Scott aka Scotty

Correct Wes,

This is the expected play and you now have drained everyone of trump and it's down to off-suit to hope set the makers. Now if that was done here, there would have been a euchre and the game.


Tbolt65
Edward

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