Ordering Up Your Partner

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RedDuke
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Ordering Up Your Partner

Post by RedDuke » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:54 am

You're in the final round of a major tournament and both you and your partner are experienced players.

The score is 7-6 in favor of your opponents. You're in second seat holding this:

(Card_J-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-H) (Card_Q-C) (Card_9-D)

Turn card is the Jack of Clubs.

First seat passes. Do you order up your partner?

Would it be better to pass and see if your partner can go alone and win the game?



irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:20 am

PASS

Wes (aka the legend)
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Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:05 am

RedDuke wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:54 am
You're in the final round of a major tournament and both you and your partner are experienced players.

The score is 7-6 in favor of your opponents. You're in second seat holding this:

(Card_J-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-H) (Card_Q-C) (Card_9-D)

Turn card is the Jack of Clubs.

First seat passes. Do you order up your partner?

Would it be better to pass and see if your partner can go alone and win the game?
Remember what I talked about in the other thread. If I have Left+1 and an offsuit ace from the 2 seat with a hand that doesn't block 2 out of the 3 remaining suits, I.e. with a hand that has poor 2nd rd defensive and offensive prospects, I'm ordering up in the 1st. There's an exception to this rule tho, and that's when your partner has the right up like in your hand.

However with that said, with just one of the below reads, this can still be an order:

1) Is your partner well versed with 2 trump loners. E.G. If he has

(Card_J-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_A-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-D)

is he going alone? If not, then order him up. The main reason you pass in the 1st round is for fear that you will block his possible loner, if he's just calling with all legit 2 trump loners + the fact that you having the Left in your hand takes out quite a few 3 trump loner combos = call now, the downside of this strategy is now minimal. Your order may actually end up blocking more 2nd rd red loners than your partner's loners, which is a good thing.

2) Does your partner know he has to pick up with Right+1, no matter how bad it looks, if he doesn't block all suits? If he can pass this hand, then it's your job in this spot to never give him the chance.

Your team is very vulnerable to a 2nd rd red loner right now. This is a very tenuous spot that needs to be played with care. All I can say for sure is that if I'm your partner in the dealer spot you should pass. With most people I play with, I.E. just regular conservative people who play their cards and not the situation, I'm ordering in your spot.

irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:51 am

My partner is skilled/ and we have a convention that when the score is 6 or 7 our favor, you do NOT turn down a bower, and I don't assist.

Just the way it is!

Irishwolf

RedDuke
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Post by RedDuke » Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:59 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:51 am
My partner is skilled/ and we have a convention that when the score is 6 or 7 our favor, you do NOT turn down a bower, and I don't assist.

Just the way it is!

Irishwolf
Works best when you're playing with a partner that you know well though. Not so great when you're playing with random people online.

jblowery
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Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 am

Post by jblowery » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:01 pm

Here is anothe example. I'm holding the J of Hearts and a low heart and have junk on the side. An ace of hearts comes up. Would you typically order up your partner?

jblowery
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Post by jblowery » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:13 pm

My thought is that I should. The chances of him attempting to go alone without the Rt is pretty low. On the other hand, if he turns it down I don't have anything left to help him with and we're probably going to lose. Chances are that he already has another bower in his hand. Even if it was a 9 of Hearts I'd probably order it up, right?

irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:05 pm

If you are talking about the Jack up then my answer is (still):

My partner is skilled/ and we have a convention that when the score is 6 or 7 our favor, you do NOT turn down a bower, and I don't assist.

Just the way it is!

Irishwolf

irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:07 pm

What is the other Junk? If you next covered, NO. If you have JH 9H with an ace and the AH is up, Yes order.

Here is anothe example. I'm holding the J of Hearts and a low heart and have junk on the side. An ace of hearts comes up. Would you typically order up your partner?

RedDuke
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Post by RedDuke » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:16 pm

jblowery wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:13 pm
My thought is that I should. The chances of him attempting to go alone without the Rt is pretty low. On the other hand, if he turns it down I don't have anything left to help him with and we're probably going to lose. Chances are that he already has another bower in his hand. Even if it was a 9 of Hearts I'd probably order it up, right?
Lots of successful lones are made without holding the right.

An obvious example is something like this. Let's say your partner is holding this:

(Card_J-D) (Card_K-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_Q-S)

Ace of Hearts is turned up. Frankly if he doesn't go alone (discarding the Queen-Spades) when you're down 7-6 then you need a new partner.

My general rule is to not order up my partner first round unless I've got at least three trumps. The exception being if I have an extremely conservative partner (which happens a lot when playing with random people online).

If I'm holding something that makes a likelihood of him trying a loner very unlikely, I might do it too. A good example would be holding both bowers and a side ace with the 10 turned up. Unless my partner had all of the remaining trump, I doubt he'd try it. Right+1 isn't strong enough though to discourage a reasonably experienced partner from going alone.

jblowery
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Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 am

Post by jblowery » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:40 pm

OK. I know there is a chance that he could go alone but I thought it was low enough (without the Rt) that it wouldn't be worth taking the chance of him turning it down. I've gone alone with only the left and won but it just doesn't happen very often and even rarer that I take it. I know it all depends upon the score but i'm talkinga bout in general. I've been on the other side I believe where I was ordered up by a partner that had the rt and I had a left and nothing else but trump. Only happened once I think though.

RedDuke
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Post by RedDuke » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:50 am

jblowery wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:40 pm
OK. I know there is a chance that he could go alone but I thought it was low enough (without the Rt) that it wouldn't be worth taking the chance of him turning it down. I've gone alone with only the left and won but it just doesn't happen very often and even rarer that I take it. I know it all depends upon the score but i'm talkinga bout in general. I've been on the other side I believe where I was ordered up by a partner that had the rt and I had a left and nothing else but trump. Only happened once I think though.
Most people are way too conservative when it comes to going alone. If you've got three trump and one is the left, you really should go alone (especially if two suited with an offsuit ace). A hand like that won't usually get set very often.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:52 am

jblowery wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:01 pm
Here is anothe example. I'm holding the J of Hearts and a low heart and have junk on the side. An ace of hearts comes up. Would you typically order up your partner?
IMO Right +1 is from the 2 seat first round is an absolute MUST call unless you block all suits, no matter how bad your other cards are. Look at it this way, think of all the hands your partner can have that he would pass on but would pick up if he could see your cards. Hands like two trump and an off ace, one trump and two off aces, just the left + 1, even one trump + an off ace can eke out a point when the 2 seat has the right + 1.

So when you pass a hand like Right + 1 in the 2 seat what you are really doing is setting your partner up to make a lot of "mistakes" that hurt your team. I put that in quotes becuz by mistake I mean it in the technical sense not in the colloquial sense, I.E. every time your partner makes a play that he would not make if he seen your cards that is a "mistake" in the technical sense. And this kind of mistake burns the most when you don't have all suits blocked and lo and behold you pass your Right + 1, your partner passes with a decent helper hand that would've gotten your team a point, and bam! seat 1 goes alone and gets the sweep. That's a 5 point swing in a 10 point game. Never let this happen. Always order up the Right + 1 when you don't have all suits blocked. With this specific holding you won't be blocking your partner's loner often enough to even worry about. You'll probably save your team from 1st seat 2nd round loners more often.

jblowery
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Post by jblowery » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:46 am

So taking that a step further, would you call "next" with Right + 1 if you have nothing else in your hand?

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:49 pm

jblowery wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:46 am
So taking that a step further, would you call "next" with Right + 1 if you have nothing else in your hand?
Absolutely! Right + 1 is actually a pretty strong next call. If you have nothing else in your hand it is imperative you make such a call. In fact you will often be calling with worse. Remember calling next is primarily a defensive call to prevent 2nd round loners from the 2 seat (mostly reverse next loners), and to some extent even 2nd round loners from the dealer spot. Keep in mind it is not the 3rd seat's responsibility to stop 2nd round loners from the dealer spot, the 3rd seat should never feel compelled to call thin on this account. It's seat 1's responsibility to prevent 2nd round enemy loners. Seat 1 is the gatekeeper, he decides what gets through that gate.

For example, say your team is up 4-0, and the dealer passes on the (Card_10-H)


You have (Card_J-H) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-C)


It is absolutely critical that you call next here with just the left and nothing else. Never pass from the 1 seat, 2nd rd up 4-0 when you don't block reverse next. In this case it's even worse, you block nothing. Never give the enemy a chance at a 4 point play in this spot. Do your job, make that defensive call and protect your team.

The truth is having Right + 1 is a luxury in this spot.

jblowery
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Post by jblowery » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:23 pm

Thanks. I assume it would apply to "Reverse Next" too, even though a call from 3rd seat is less likely.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:07 pm

jblowery wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:23 pm
Thanks. I assume it would apply to "Reverse Next" too, even though a call from 3rd seat is less likely.
Yep the same kind've logic applies to calling Reverse Next in the 2nd seat, like if I'm up 4-0, I'm never passing from the two seat 2nd round if I don't block all loners, but the funny thing is in a tough game reverse next strategy wont matter much becuz it will barely ever get to you :) and when it does it usually means Seat 1 has all suits blocked or at least reverse next blocked (Not exactly the greatest spot for you). In that rare case, calling reverse next too loosely can really burn you, but those types of games are rare and when they do occur it's usually online.

Reverse Next strategy really comes to life when seat 1 passes too much (and the vast majority do just that), then you can open up your game, and make some very questionable loose calls. The spots you pick to call real loose are those times you block nothing, and you tighten up your game big time when you block everything. Never make weak calls when you block everything unless it's 9-9. A related idea to this last tidbit, going back to seat 1, 2nd round scenarios: Never make a thin next call when you have reverse next blocked.

A classic example of a thin reverse next call can be found on this site:

https://www.ohioeuchre.com/E_What-Is-Reverse-Next-Call-example1.php

Notice in that hand, seat 1 should've called next, he had the left and two off aces. Certainly a marginal call but a call one often has to make when they don't block reverse next. Like I said above, marginal reverse next calls really come to life when seat 1 passes too much as illustrated in this hand.

RedDuke
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Post by RedDuke » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:35 am

Yep the same kind've logic applies to calling Reverse Next in the 2nd seat, like if I'm up 4-0, I'm never passing from the two seat 2nd round if I don't block all loners, but the funny thing is in a tough game reverse next strategy wont matter much becuz it will barely ever get to you :) and when it does it usually means Seat 1 has all suits blocked or at least reverse next blocked (Not exactly the greatest spot for you). In that rare case, calling reverse next too loosely can really burn you, but those types of games are rare and when they do occur it's usually online.
One thing that I've noticed about online games is that people tend to never make calls that there's any chance that they'll be euchred on, even if it would prevent a successful loner from the opposition. Like the hand you mentioned earlier as being a first round seat 1 call would never get called by most of the players that I see (and I've actually had partners cuss me out for donating, even if it was pretty obvious that the dealer had a loner).

Last night, I was playing an online game and I was holding

(Card_J-S) (Card_J-C) (Card_K-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_A-H)

in second seat. We were down 8-6.

Everybody passed on the Jack of Diamonds first round.

Second round, first seat didn't call next (he actually had the right bower and a green ace too!). Needless to say, we promptly came from behind and won that game. If they would have called anything then the game wouldn't have ended that hand and they would have had the deal next hand (and a 70% chance of making a point).

Always name trump if you can't stop a loner from the opposition!

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 262
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:01 am

RedDuke wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:35 am
Last night, I was playing an online game and I was holding

(Card_J-S) (Card_J-C) (Card_K-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_A-H)

in second seat. We were down 8-6.

Everybody passed on the Jack of Diamonds first round.

Second round, first seat didn't call next (he actually had the right bower and a green ace too!). Needless to say, we promptly came from behind and won that game. If they would have called anything then the game wouldn't have ended that hand and they would have had the deal next hand (and a 70% chance of making a point).

Always name trump if you can't stop a loner from the opposition!
Yep, when my team is up 8-6, and the action is on me in the 1 seat, 2nd round, I NEVER pass if I don't block all loners. I'm never gonna let seat 2 win the game in that spot. RedDuke your hand is another great illustration on why Seat 1 is the most important position in the game. Most people have no clue how much responsibility falls on Seat 1 to protect their team. But then again, most people just play their cards instead of playing to win.

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