10-29-21 OE Friday - got euchred #3

[Dlan]

We are going to try something a little different, On these hands, the maker was euchred. The question is, would you have called, and could it have been played to make a point?

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

[irishwolf]

A good call by East on 2R. But why would West not lead the JD when he had a chance?

AND BAGGING DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK!

[Richardb02]

Irish, please clarify some of your points.

Are you saying the R2S2 order with A9d is a good order? That concept is beyond my skill level. Or do you mean that the R2S2 order should have taken a point?

I see R1S1 bagging a quality order. I see R1S4 as a “partial bag.” Next is protected and even a decent next order. S4 probably suspects S1 of bagging. Plus S4 has RKd, which is how the hand played out. I surmise you are talking about the R1S1 bag, right?

[irishwolf]

On 2R, no not really a great call but an aggressive call. He call opposite color of what was turned down. He should call something as they are behind in score and not their deal next. To go down by 3 or more points is a very large deficit to win the game even though he has no voids. He's calling trump for his partner that has to win 2 tricks. You have to take chances and this is the time and place to do that. His partner had, the Dealer, won his two tricks but screwed this up big time. It boggles my mind why the JD was not led?

As to making a point, with doubt the Dealer should have known that and led his JD, right bower when he had a chance. He did not, that was lousy play. Notice also, AS is buried, KS is boss in spades. They had their point. He leads the JD like hs is suppose to, they win four tricks.

I hope that helps!

IRISH

[Richardb02]

Yes Irish, thanks. I am satisfied when someone explains their reasoning. You provided, down 3-5, time to take a chance, weak order, have to count on S4 for 2 tricks. We can easily agree to disagree with my reasoning, down 3-5, not the time to panic, very weak order, I only count on partner for 1 point.

Let’s get back to bagging. You were talking about R1S1’s bag with LAQ of trump and a void, weren’t you?

[Wes (aka the legend)]

S2 made a good 2nd round call imo and played the hand well. I'm not passing up any reverse next call in this spot when I block no suits. Not happening.

S4 should not be passing up R+1+0. That's only defensible if he blocks all suits. I am sympathetic to the idea of passing this marginal hand to bag a Next call. In theory this is one of the best hands to do it with imo. Why? Not just cuz S4 has 3 trump in Next but also becuz he has KdJd. I would not even consider bagging a Next call without a red bower in my hand, not just cuz that blocks another suit but also becuz that card acts like a blocker card lowering the probability S1 calls red to begin with. This reminds me of the idea of bluff 3 betting or 4 betting someone in No limit with Ax cuz this hand blocks the chances of running into AK/AA.

So I can see where someone is coming from when they bag this hand. You got 3 trump in Next and if S1 calls diamonds he could be in trouble too given you also have KdJd, and just by having the Jd in your hand you lower the probability S1 has a heart call. All that said, I still suspect this ploy is only worth it if S1 calls Next like a monkey, I.E. someone like me. But players like me are extremely rare. I mean lets face it, like 95-99% of the player pool doesn't even call Next. They simply play their cards in that spot. If they have a hand they call, if not they pass. And even in the Monday/Friday Night game many Next calls are still passed up. So yeah, I think S4 should just "keep it simple stupid" and make the standard R+1+0 call and hope for the best. If I'm in S1 bagging on Next might be best. And I stress the word "might". Even tho I call next more than anyone on the planet, I also jump the fence more than anyone on the planet. So who knows.

Ok Lets move on to the most egregious aspect of this hand (besides the dealer inexplicably not leading the Right on 3rd street): S1's very poor play. S1 choosing to Pass-Pass with his holding when he doesn't block reverse Next is unconscionable. Just terrible euchre play. S1 has two choices, call with 3 trump in the first round, lead the JS and hope for the best, or bag in the first round with the intention of calling Next with R+0+A in the 2nd round, leading the Right followed by the Ace. This is another scenario worth testing. Which way has a higher EV? My money is on the first round call being better than bagging and calling Next given how marginal that Next call is. One could and probably should run this test with an amateur dealer and an expert dealer. Either way I still suspect the first rd call will come out ahead. The most important aspect of this spot tho is S1 understanding that Pass-pass is not an option with this hand.

[Tbolt65]

Regardless of what happened on ordering or not. It got back to seat 2. They called red for their partner. The big mistake in how things unfolded when trump was made is seat 4 not leading the right bauer here. It costs the team here and seat 2 has to assume dealer has no trump so they play accordingly. The result is a euchre that shouldn't happened. Either a misclick or brain fart is the only acceptable response. All others is just poor play period.

Tbolt65
Edward