10-29-21 OE Friday - got euchred #1

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Dlan
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10-29-21 OE Friday - got euchred #1

Unread post by Dlan » Sat Oct 30, 2021 3:12 pm

We are going to try something a little different, On these hands, the maker was euchred. The question is, would you have called, and could it have been played to make a point?

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

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Richardb02
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Unread post by Richardb02 » Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:32 pm

Your something different is excellent Dlan.

I would not order R1S2, unless my team had 9 points (my team only needs 1 point to win the game). With the Right up, I want to give partner an opportunity to make 4, especially in an OE game. I don’t order unless I have 3 trump, LA or LK.

I suspect that S4, the dealer, expected that partner, S2 had the Left, which lead to his Trick 2 lead.

Dealer should have lead his Ac for Trick 2. If you have power (a Reverse Doubleton Boss Ace), and the lead, you need to lead it. Sure S1 trumps it, but that uses 1 of his trump. His likely lead of Js gets trumped by S2. S2 leads the Qd, S1 trumps the trick but loses the last trick. Score 1 for the maker.

Now, if S1 is world class, they may see the opportunity to get the euchre! They lead the Ah! They have stopped 2 points already. Their spades are both boss. The Ah is good. But the Js is trumped by S2 and the last trick is won by S4 with his Ad. Maker gets their point.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:27 pm

Why order your partner's bower? Especially if you have no Voids!

IRISH

jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:06 pm

Richard, the left was used on trick one, the dealer trumped over it with the right. I don't believe the dealer is ever wrong to lead a low trump after taking the first trick. The maker should almost always have 3 trump here, and if the call is made on just 2 trump and an off suit ace, then the maker should at least have 2 fairly strong trump, not two of the bottom 3 lowest trump. Leading one of the aces before leading trump just creates a scenario where the maker's team is potentially robbed of a march, and the dealer should be under no obligation to play around a worst case scenario in the event of 2nd making a poor call.

Richardb02
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Unread post by Richardb02 » Sun Oct 31, 2021 8:58 am

Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:32 pm

I suspect that S4, the dealer, expected that partner, S2 had the Left, which lead to his Trick 2 lead.

Thank you j and allowing me to correct my statement:
I suspect that S4, the dealer, after seeing that S2 did not have the Left, expected S2 to have 3 trump, which lead to his Trick 2 lead.

As Irish succinctly pointed out,”Why order your partner’s bower? Especially if you have no Voids!

The R1S2 order is a poor order, but many players auto-order R1S2 with any 2 trump. This hand is from an OE game. I have seen the same order during OE games. Aggressive players, at any level, often order this configuration. It is very reasonable to consider this information. Then play the cards in your hand. Play your Boss! If S2 had 3 trump, there is a strong probability that he is void in your Boss card’s suit. The trump S4 lead on trick 2 caused this euchre. That is why the only absolute in Euchre and life in general, is not to use absolutes. Your absolute, “I don’t believe the dealer is ever wrong to lead a low trump after taking the first trick,” is inherently incorrect. The results of the OP hand is strong confirmation.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Sun Oct 31, 2021 11:51 am

There is actually more to this hand. So we have (I think) S2 should not have ordered the Right. But you have to know your partner too. Of course we (I) know who that player was that ordered the Right, as we have discussed it before on OE. He does it all the time. The point is know your partner!

With this in mind, does he have to over trump the Left? When S3 played the Left, you know it is his only trump. And he had no Spades, there are four spades out there between the Stock, S1 & S2. Just might S1 have three spades? Certainly, he has another and it was a good lead to lead from three when S2 assists to get S3 to trump high.

I contend, that the Dealer should not have led trump, Lead one of those aces because S1 is in a squeeze. S3 has to lead a Diamond or a Club and you have both aces. Sure you could assume S2 has the boss trump but how S2 plays that is a leap of faith. Lead the AD. With this hand, that ensures a point and possibly a sweep. Sweeps are tough to win (about 1 in 7 tries, statistically), get your point first.

Point is KNOW THY PARTNER, the 12th commandment. :lol:

IRISH

P.S. Maybe it would help to post a Chart that indicates when and how strong S2 should order his partner when Jack is up. We know it's 80 to 90%

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:10 am

About S2's call, I think we all agree that it's not a good call if one's partner is a strong player. The only remaining question is, is this a good call if S2's partner is an amateur, a very pertinent question since like 95-99% of the time that's what your P will be when you're playing with randoms on your phone.

Getting more concrete, say the typical amateur will pass with R+1+0, and will never go alone with only 2 trump, two assumptions I think we can all agree with. Would that reality now push S2's dubious call into +EV territory? I don't know, I've never tested it. I even think the typical amateur is not going alone with strong hands like this:

(Card_J-H) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C)

And I've seen many players not go alone with:

(Card_J-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_A-S) (Card_9-S)

And I've seen many players pass R+1+A.

But to keep this test conservative I would ignore those examples and just focus on the uncontroversial: Pretty much all amateurs pass R+1+0 and never go alone with just 2 trump. My money is on S2's call being better than passing under this scenario.

Anyways, after the call, everyone played their hand well imo.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:02 am

Does not matter if this is a + EV for this particular hand. Of course an assist is + EV but that is not the point or good euchre. Sure on close out, at 8 or 9 points but that is not the situation here. Terrible call!

Dealer only needs the Ace or King to go alone with this hand. The King if the Ace is in the Stock or with S2 (44%). S2 needs to keep quiet when the Jack is up. Especially down by 3 or more even when he has three trumps. Many thin loners can be successful. At least when my partner do not order.

Dealer will only pass if he has Next covered or with a Euchre hand - A SMALL PERCENTAGE THAT IS!

This has been discussed before at least twice.

IRISH

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:57 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:02 am
Does not matter if this is a + EV for this particular hand. Of course an assist is + EV but that is not the point or good euchre. Sure on close out, at 8 or 9 points but that is not the situation here. Terrible call!
To be more clear, what I am saying is I suspect that with an amateur partner calling will be better than passing. IOW by +EV I mean the best possible choice. If calling does beat out passing with an amateur P then our opinions on the matter--terrible call, good call, good euchre, bad euchre, etc--no longer matter. The math speaks for itself. However what makes euchre so complicated is the fact that there are many instances where making a -EV play is probably best. The example you pointed out, "down by 3 or more" is likely one of them imo. That's a claim that seems impossible to prove without a real simulation but I believe it so we're on the same page there. And I think we're on the same page everywhere else. For example, If I "proved" to you through a solid sample that making this dubious call is better than passing at 0-0 with an amateur P I'm sure you would come along for the ride after you replicated this work. This whole discussion is moot of course for Monday/Friday night games where we all presumably have strong partners we can trust thus making passing the better play. But for practical purposes, for those who play with randoms every day and wanna maximize their win rate in such a setting--a questionable ambition for sure :)--, what to do with an amateur P actually becomes the most important strategic question.

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LeftyK
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Unread post by LeftyK » Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:24 pm

jspectre wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:06 pm
Richard, the left was used on trick one, the dealer trumped over it with the right. I don't believe the dealer is ever wrong to lead a low trump after taking the first trick. The maker should almost always have 3 trump here, and if the call is made on just 2 trump and an off suit ace, then the maker should at least have 2 fairly strong trump, not two of the bottom 3 lowest trump. Leading one of the aces before leading trump just creates a scenario where the maker's team is potentially robbed of a march, and the dealer should be under no obligation to play around a worst case scenario in the event of 2nd making a poor call.

you were the dealer and I made a bad call. The context of the call was game one down 0-7, I lost 4-11 so this was the 2nd game of the night. But like Irish says know your partner 12th commandment. My 12th commandment is don't play the right in a thin situation like that.......be all that water under the bridge... if s2 passes and s4 calls, it's still a euchre hand made by s1. It's just one of those hands. Yeah, bad call no void also Irish, I agree.

It was a bad call, I was in a funk and should not have been playing euchre Friday night (Went 2 of 10 and every loss was by five points or more except one 9-10 game).

jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:51 pm

LeftyK wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:24 pm
jspectre wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:06 pm
Richard, the left was used on trick one, the dealer trumped over it with the right. I don't believe the dealer is ever wrong to lead a low trump after taking the first trick. The maker should almost always have 3 trump here, and if the call is made on just 2 trump and an off suit ace, then the maker should at least have 2 fairly strong trump, not two of the bottom 3 lowest trump. Leading one of the aces before leading trump just creates a scenario where the maker's team is potentially robbed of a march, and the dealer should be under no obligation to play around a worst case scenario in the event of 2nd making a poor call.

you were the dealer and I made a bad call. The context of the call was game one down 0-7, I lost 4-11 so this was the 2nd game of the night. But like Irish says know your partner 12th commandment. My 12th commandment is don't play the right in a thin situation like that.......be all that water under the bridge... if s2 passes and s4 calls, it's still a euchre hand made by s1. It's just one of those hands. Yeah, bad call no void also Irish, I agree.

It was a bad call, I was in a funk and should not have been playing euchre Friday night (Went 2 of 10 and every loss was by five points or more except one 9-10 game).
I'm not sure I'm following your "context" as the score was 0-0 on this hand, so there's no extenuating circumstances on this call. It's also simply untrue that I would have been euchred if I made this call. I would not have trumped over the left in that situation, I would wait and let them lead the suit of my ace. From this point on there's no way to get euchred, barring that S2 plays correctly. Irish my have a point, but we haven't played together in a while, possibly due to calls such as this, so I wasn't really analyzing these factors.

I led trump to avoid a situation where leading an ace ruined the march, and with my partner calling trump, and myself having 2 aces, there should rarely ever be an issue here. If even one of your trumps was an ace, we would make a point, and if you have anything besides 2 bottom 3 trump, then S1 needs exactly a tripleton off suit to get the euchre, and I'm willing to wager that the scenario of a ruined march is the far more common one, and the correct one to be playing around.

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:22 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:10 am
About S2's call, I think we all agree that it's not a good call if one's partner is a strong player. The only remaining question is, is this a good call if S2's partner is an amateur, a very pertinent question since like 95-99% of the time that's what your P will be when you're playing with randoms on your phone.

Getting more concrete, say the typical amateur will pass with R+1+0, and will never go alone with only 2 trump, two assumptions I think we can all agree with. Would that reality now push S2's dubious call into +EV territory? I don't know, I've never tested it. I even think the typical amateur is not going alone with strong hands like this:

(Card_J-H) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C)

And I've seen many players not go alone with:

(Card_J-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_A-S) (Card_9-S)

And I've seen many players pass R+1+A.

But to keep this test conservative I would ignore those examples and just focus on the uncontroversial: Pretty much all amateurs pass R+1+0 and never go alone with just 2 trump. My money is on S2's call being better than passing under this scenario.

Anyways, after the call, everyone played their hand well imo.

I would agree as well. The only other time I would add is at a 9 to 9 or 8 to 9 down scenario with any type of partner. To order that is.

Tbolt65
Edward

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