https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

Richardb02 wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:32 pm
I suspect that S4, the dealer, expected that partner, S2 had the Left, which lead to his Trick 2 lead.
To be more clear, what I am saying is I suspect that with an amateur partner calling will be better than passing. IOW by +EV I mean the best possible choice. If calling does beat out passing with an amateur P then our opinions on the matter--terrible call, good call, good euchre, bad euchre, etc--no longer matter. The math speaks for itself. However what makes euchre so complicated is the fact that there are many instances where making a -EV play is probably best. The example you pointed out, "down by 3 or more" is likely one of them imo. That's a claim that seems impossible to prove without a real simulation but I believe it so we're on the same page there. And I think we're on the same page everywhere else. For example, If I "proved" to you through a solid sample that making this dubious call is better than passing at 0-0 with an amateur P I'm sure you would come along for the ride after you replicated this work. This whole discussion is moot of course for Monday/Friday night games where we all presumably have strong partners we can trust thus making passing the better play. But for practical purposes, for those who play with randoms every day and wanna maximize their win rate in such a setting--a questionable ambition for sureirishwolf wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:02 am Does not matter if this is a + EV for this particular hand. Of course an assist is + EV but that is not the point or good euchre. Sure on close out, at 8 or 9 points but that is not the situation here. Terrible call!
jspectre wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:06 pm Richard, the left was used on trick one, the dealer trumped over it with the right. I don't believe the dealer is ever wrong to lead a low trump after taking the first trick. The maker should almost always have 3 trump here, and if the call is made on just 2 trump and an off suit ace, then the maker should at least have 2 fairly strong trump, not two of the bottom 3 lowest trump. Leading one of the aces before leading trump just creates a scenario where the maker's team is potentially robbed of a march, and the dealer should be under no obligation to play around a worst case scenario in the event of 2nd making a poor call.
I'm not sure I'm following your "context" as the score was 0-0 on this hand, so there's no extenuating circumstances on this call. It's also simply untrue that I would have been euchred if I made this call. I would not have trumped over the left in that situation, I would wait and let them lead the suit of my ace. From this point on there's no way to get euchred, barring that S2 plays correctly. Irish my have a point, but we haven't played together in a while, possibly due to calls such as this, so I wasn't really analyzing these factors.LeftyK wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:24 pmjspectre wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:06 pm Richard, the left was used on trick one, the dealer trumped over it with the right. I don't believe the dealer is ever wrong to lead a low trump after taking the first trick. The maker should almost always have 3 trump here, and if the call is made on just 2 trump and an off suit ace, then the maker should at least have 2 fairly strong trump, not two of the bottom 3 lowest trump. Leading one of the aces before leading trump just creates a scenario where the maker's team is potentially robbed of a march, and the dealer should be under no obligation to play around a worst case scenario in the event of 2nd making a poor call.
you were the dealer and I made a bad call. The context of the call was game one down 0-7, I lost 4-11 so this was the 2nd game of the night. But like Irish says know your partner 12th commandment. My 12th commandment is don't play the right in a thin situation like that.......be all that water under the bridge... if s2 passes and s4 calls, it's still a euchre hand made by s1. It's just one of those hands. Yeah, bad call no void also Irish, I agree.
It was a bad call, I was in a funk and should not have been playing euchre Friday night (Went 2 of 10 and every loss was by five points or more except one 9-10 game).
Wes (aka the legend) wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:10 am About S2's call, I think we all agree that it's not a good call if one's partner is a strong player. The only remaining question is, is this a good call if S2's partner is an amateur, a very pertinent question since like 95-99% of the time that's what your P will be when you're playing with randoms on your phone.
Getting more concrete, say the typical amateur will pass with R+1+0, and will never go alone with only 2 trump, two assumptions I think we can all agree with. Would that reality now push S2's dubious call into +EV territory? I don't know, I've never tested it. I even think the typical amateur is not going alone with strong hands like this:
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And I've seen many players not go alone with:
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And I've seen many players pass R+1+A.
But to keep this test conservative I would ignore those examples and just focus on the uncontroversial: Pretty much all amateurs pass R+1+0 and never go alone with just 2 trump. My money is on S2's call being better than passing under this scenario.
Anyways, after the call, everyone played their hand well imo.