Second Trick Lead

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ALPOH
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Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:34 pm

Second Trick Lead

Unread post by ALPOH » Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:30 am

Here's a scenario that came up in a game last week. Partner in S2 orders me up a small trump, I have just the ordered card and one other small trump, no aces. S1 leads and I take it with my small trump. What should I lead for the second trick?



irishwolf
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:18 pm

You have to show the cards in in your hand to make a sensible discussion?

And you say nothing about your partner or the other players. Or was that first game and what is the score.

All things matter!

IRISH

jspectre
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Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:04 am

Unread post by jspectre » Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:51 pm

If you're playing with a partner of around average skill, and the score is relatively even (within 2 points) and below 7, then just lead trump here under any circumstance. It's a safe assumption that they are calling because they have a strong hand, and therefore a trump lead is going to be the best lead for your partner. However, if the score dictates that your partner may have to order you up on a weaker hand, then you may want to avoid leading trump in the following circumstances, both assume you have no aces.

If your partner orders up a larger trump such as a K or A, then he knows you still have it in your hand if you take the first trick with a smaller trump. If you can't offer any further help with your non-trump cards, then it may be better to just lead your cleanest suit (suit least likely to be trumped by the opponents) instead of trump. Your partner can now play accordingly, knowing you still hold the ordered trump card. This does not work if the smaller of the 2 trump is ordered into your hand.

The other exception is when you're 2 suited, holding only trump and one other suit. If you hold a larger non-bower trump, then you may wish to simply not lead trump back, as you can potentially still take a trick in the other suit. However, if it's a small trump, then the only time you wouldn't lead it is if your partner shows an ace on the first trick you took. Now, there's a real danger that he doesn't have a winning suit to lead on trick 3, and the potential exists for you to be able to trump a trick in a suit that your partner can't cover.
Last edited by jspectre on Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

justme
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:06 pm

Unread post by justme » Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:54 pm

ALPOH wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:30 am
Here's a scenario that came up in a game last week. Partner in S2 orders me up a small trump, I have just the ordered card and one other small trump, no aces. S1 leads and I take it with my small trump. What should I lead for the second trick?
You got your one trick. Lead trump! Force a potential 2 trump cards out from your opposition on the next trick. If your partner is any good and has made a good order your team should get the point. The bonus of getting 2 points might be instore for your team if your partners hand is strong enough (includes R bower) . If your team gets euchred, your partner probably should have kept his mouth shut and passed.

XaviRonaldo
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Unread post by XaviRonaldo » Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:00 am

Only small trump it's probably best to lead trump. Good chance your partner has at least 1 ace and should either have 3 trump or at the very least 2 with a bower. You only having a small trump it's very unlikely you'll get a trick with it. Best to give your partner control IMO. You've given them all they needed from you hopefully.

The only time I wouldn't lead trump here and I may get castigated for this but is I am 2 suited with an ace. There's a good chance your partner is void in this suit. I know there's a good chance one opponent is void too but it's 50/50 that it's the player to partners right which is ideal but I've had success giving my partner a discard much more often than them actually having that suit. That discard could be the ticket to 2 points.

ALPOH
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Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:34 pm

Unread post by ALPOH » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:52 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:18 pm
You have to show the cards in in your hand to make a sensible discussion?

And you say nothing about your partner or the other players. Or was that first game and what is the score.

All things matter!

IRISH
Unfortunately, I don't remember the exact cards, or I would have included them. I was sort of looking for a general case answer but I understand that the details make a difference.

My partner was a fairly experienced but quite cautious player. Score was around 5-5.

ALPOH
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Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:34 pm

Unread post by ALPOH » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:54 pm

jspectre wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:51 pm
If you're playing with a partner of around average skill, and the score is relatively even (within 2 points) and below 7, then just lead trump here under any circumstance. It's a safe assumption that they are calling because they have a strong hand, and therefore a trump lead is going to be the best lead for your partner. However, if the score dictates that your partner may have to order you up on a weaker hand, then you may want to avoid leading trump in the following circumstances, both assume you have no aces.

If your partner orders up a larger trump such as a K or A, then he knows you still have it in your hand if you take the first trick with a smaller trump. If you can't offer any further help with your non-trump cards, then it may be better to just lead your cleanest suit (suit least likely to be trumped by the opponents) instead of trump. Your partner can now play accordingly, knowing you still hold the ordered trump card. This does not work if the smaller of the 2 trump is ordered into your hand.

The other exception is when you're 2 suited, holding only trump and one other suit. If you hold a larger non-bower trump, then you may wish to simply not lead trump back, as you can potentially still take a trick in the other suit. However, if it's a small trump, then the only time you wouldn't lead it is if your partner shows an ace on the first trick you took. Now, there's a real danger that he doesn't have a winning suit to lead on trick 3, and the potential exists for you to be able to trump a trick in a suit that your partner can't cover.
This is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you!

icanplay
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Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:05 pm

Unread post by icanplay » Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:00 pm

Under most circumstances, I would lead back trump with an experienced partner. If my team has nine points, I would not lead back trump. In most circumstances, it is my job to look at the situation (score) and pick up weak, not my partners job to order up weak. I have more info then they do (seeing what seat three does, and knowing what the discard will be), however, if my partners hand is weak in all suites, and they can help the most in the turned up suit, and they would have to pass on the second round of making trump, they would strongly consider ordering me up weak. In this case, me leading back trump could backfire. Much more often then not (and euchre is about playing the odds), they have some cards if they are ordering me up a weak card. Therefore, if two points can help our team, I want to play into my partners hand and I lead trump back in the situation you laid out. If I am two-suited, and I had two trump, I would be even more inclined to lead trump back, because to lead the off-suite that I have three of, would possibly lead to my partner being over-trumped. And that is the quickest way to get us set.... If I had a singleton off Ace in a green suit, I might consider leading it. But that is not the scenario you outlined.
I realize if we are down big, I know my partner might order up weak, but I do not think that is the time for me to play super conservative... we need points in that situation so I am going for two...
One other thing, most partners i play with regularly know, and pretty much expect i would order back trump, and that also plays a part in my decision...

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LeftyK
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Unread post by LeftyK » Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:59 am

"One other thing, most partners i play with regularly know, and pretty much expect i would order back trump, and that also plays a part in my decision..." - I'm not comprending this sentence. Do you mean you would lead trump back to your partner's call of trump?

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