Leading back trump

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Rebel
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:35 pm

Leading back trump

Post by Rebel » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:57 pm

This happened at our euchre game tonight. I dealt and the up card was the jack of clubs. Everyone passed and after discarding the 10D I took it up.

I held (Card_J-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_9-D) (Card_J-H) (Card_Q-H)

1st seat leads the KS and my partner takes it with the ace. I sloughed the 10D. Now my partner leads the KC, 3rd has the 9C. Not wanting to risk losing the trick to the left or ace, I use the R. 1st plays the AC. From there I led the JH, 1st sloughed the QD. My partner is out of trump and plays a 10S, 3rd takes the trick with the AH. They then lead the AD. I trump with the queen, but 1st has the left and overtrumps. He still has a QS for their third trick and I’m euchred.
My question – Was partners leading back of trump the appropriate move? In many cases it seems to decrease your chance a making a point.



RedDuke
Posts: 177
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:03 am

My question – Was partners leading back of trump the appropriate move? In many cases it seems to decrease your chance a making a point.
I usually will if my partner calls it. The point of this being that since you called but haven't played a trump this hand, you probably have at least two and he knows you have the right. You called with a thin hand (I probably would have done the same, but it was a thin hand). The best way to give it to you was to lead trump.

The assumption is that the lead will pull the trump from the opponents hands, making it more likely that your aces will get through. I know you don't have any here, that's why I said that you called on a thin hand, but your partner didn't know that.

This was doubly true since in this case, it sounds like your partner also had no aces. Since he's essentially holding a losing hand, he was trying to give you control with the intent that your hand would be enough to make the point.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:43 am

Rebel,

You and your partner both played this hand well, and ultimately that's all that matters.

First, you made a thin but correct call. Whenever you don't block all loners Jack+1 and nothing else is a must call. Good job on that. When your partner takes the first trick, leading trump to the maker is the correct play.

There are certainly exceptions to the "lead trump to your P" rule, and those times occur when you have more information on your P's hand--information that suggests your P has a marginal holding.

EG: Say you're in the 2 seat and your partner picks up the (Card_A-H) , seat 1 leads the (Card_10-C) , you and seat 3 follow suit and your P takes it with the (Card_A-C) , and now your P plays the (Card_K-D), and you end up taking that trick by trumping in with the (Card_K-H).

Let's say these are the cards you have left:

(Card_Q-H) (Card_K-S) (Card_9-C)

Now it's time to lead trump to the maker, so play the (Card_Q-H) right?? Actually no. Notice how your Partner played this hand so far. He took the first trick without burning a trump and yet played a garbage card on his next lead. This line indicates a very marginal holding, the kind've holding a trump lead could easily screw up. So in this example your best lead back is the suit that hasn't been played yet, the (Card_K-S).

Reading hands, spades is also the suit your partner has to be void in. He already played a club and a diamond, and he can't have the (Card_A-S) becuz if he had that he would've lead trump on the 2nd lead. So by leading a spade you give your P an opportunity to get a cheap trick which is exactly what he may need given the weak nature of his holding.

Notice in your hand example, your hand was also weak, and a trump lead hurt it, but your P had no way of knowing your hand was weak. With no information on the nature of your partner's holding, the default play is to lead trump to the maker, so your P played it correctly.

RedDuke
Posts: 177
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:59 am

Also, another thing to keep in mind is that with your hand, you really needed your partner to take two tricks. You only had one guaranteed trick, the Jack-Clubs. The queen of trump can often take a trick, but generally only if you've got the last play. That's when an end play comes in. You couldn't do that in this scenario though because you had no real way to take control of the hand other than burning a trump.

First was holding Left (Jack of Spades)+Ace (Clubs), the King, and the Queen of Spades. What else did he have? I've got a strange feeling here that if you didn't pick up that jack then he would have gone alone in next.

Rebel
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:35 pm

Post by Rebel » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:35 pm

Both my partner and I tend to make thin calls and he would agree that leading trump back is correct. Lately I have been toying with different strategies. One of those being when my partner makes trump I don’t lead one back. The only time I do is when I have a second trump. It does seem to increase the probability of success.

Leading trump back is a common practice; I’m just trying to determine if there could be a better way.

RedDuke
Posts: 177
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:09 pm

Rebel wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:35 pm
Both my partner and I tend to make thin calls and he would agree that leading trump back is correct. Lately I have been toying with different strategies. One of those being when my partner makes trump I don’t lead one back. The only time I do is when I have a second trump. It does seem to increase the probability of success.

Leading trump back is a common practice; I’m just trying to determine if there could be a better way.
If my partner declares, I sometimes won't lead a trump back if I only have one, but it depends on what else I have. If I have something that has a good chance of taking a trick (like a singleton Ace), I'll sometimes lead that instead.

The reason for leading Trump is because your partner probably has a bower that he can use to take control.

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