What does it mean if the dealer picks up, and upon their partner winning the first trick, the dealer throws away an ace?

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jspectre
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What does it mean if the dealer picks up, and upon their partner winning the first trick, the dealer throws away an ace?

Unread post by jspectre » Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:00 pm

At the risk of asking a really dumb question, I am curious to get some expert opinions on this.



irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:29 pm

I have played a zillion games and have never observed this! I suppose at at very elementary level, it could mean I have four small trumps (or 3 trumps & an ace) because the dealer did not go alone. Or some other combination like three trump and an ace.

Certainly, it would mean lead to that ace suit I just sloughed, but would it not be a better option if you slough an ace to lead Trump.

However, if you are going to do all that, why not trump or overtrump the trick yourself unless it was the A, L or R I could possibly see it happening.

If it was not the A, L or R to that 1st trick, so you have some other hands that would justify such a move? Forget the dumb playing where anything goes.

IRISH

P.S.

If the dealer did that to me and I won that trick with an ace or a small trump, and I had a choice of that suit to his ace vs a trump, I would lead a trump. :lol:

jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:51 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:29 pm
I have played a zillion games and have never observed this! I suppose at at very elementary level, it could mean I have four small trumps because the dealer did not go alone. Or some other combination like three trump and an ace.
Certainly, it would mean lead to that ace suit I sloughed, but would it not mean as a better option if you slough an ace to lead Trump.
However, if you are going to do all that B.S., why not trump or overtrump the trick yourself.

In all, actually, makes no sense to me! So provide some hand(s) that would justify such a silly move.

IRISH
EDIT: I was wrong, this signal should be viewed as the dealer holding the boss K, just because it could be a rare circumstance of the dealer voiding himself of an ace, this shouldn't change anything. In both cases a trump lead is mandatory, and leading to the off suit shown should be avoided if at all possible. If 2nd only has the ace of trump, then it is important to give them the green light to lead it, otherwise there are certainly times that the maker's team walks into a euchre if trump is led here. I was doubting myself because of how often this signal is misinterpreted, and whether it has any relevance to your partner, my doubt was misplaced.

The reason I ask is because I realized that I sometimes still do this, for the same reason that you toss an ace to signal to your partner that you hold the boss K, which is honestly just terrible. I think this is just some bad habit I picked up as an amateur, where going by that logic, I would announce to my partner that I held the boss K, and that they should lead trump under any circumstance, because they would be much less inclined to lead if they only had an ace left.

However, this backfired constantly, they would lead me the same suit back, and it would often get trumped. I also don't think it should specifically mean to lead that suit, trump would always be preferable instead. If anything, this shouldn't even be so much as a signal than it is just the rare hand where you could not go alone, but have all trump and aces.

If you have no trump, then leading the suit of the ace isn't necessarily the best play, either, especially if it was a next ace. Hitting the ace I'm still holding is the best outcome, otherwise I have to trump, and then lead another trump, which is potentially dangerous. However, it occurs to me that perhaps the best play is to simply trump your partner and lead, and then retain both aces, unless this isn't possible.
Last edited by jspectre on Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:31 am

Funny you said, YOU SAID, "However, this backfired constantly, they would lead me the same suit back, and it would often get trumped. I also don't think it should specifically mean to lead that suit, trump would always be preferable instead."

I had a comment about just that but then went and deleted it. Exactly my comments. I see this mistake on OE Monday & Friday where the the A/K holder will slough it. There is a time and place for it but often abused as you you give the opponents of what suit to NOT lead as well. I can't count the number of times I have observed this incorrectly done, and by 'good players'. I will seldom do it when I can slough to create a void. You always have to be aware is the time right not to benefit the opponents more than it benefits your partner.

Great ploy against a loner, 100% use it (even then if you have A/K & A, you can screw yourself if not careful.

So the time and place is when your partner has control at the trick you just sloughed that Ace and have the King. But not early in the hand or when the opponents have control of the trick you slough. But you can also effectively trick the opponents as well when you hold A/K + A of another suit. They will generally lead to the other Ace. And occasionally you have no choice and if on Defense, slough the King.

But I only use it to mean, 'Lead me the ace suit or I am trump tight'. Otherwise, it just another form of False Carding, IMO.

IRISH

jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Thu Sep 02, 2021 4:26 am

Irish, I can definitely agree with that, there's a certain timing required to slough an ace to show your partner where they can count on your for a trick. In the event where your partner uses a trump to win trick 1, but chooses to lead an ace to trick 2 instead of trump, create a void instead of showing the ace if you have trump, and are able to do so. If you are void, then only show the ace if 1st has not trumped the trick, as long as it passes by 1st then you're safe to show.

Another example is if first leads an ace and you have no trump or ability to follow suit, that wouldn't be the right time to show, if they retain possession of the lead, then you have just shown them which suit they should absolutely not lead, and warned them of the threat. However, if they lead a loser, then you should show the ace, you don't want to give 3rd a chance to win the trick, and then lead to the suit of your ace, potentially causing your partner to trump it.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:12 am

jspectre wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:51 pm
The reason I ask is because I realized that I sometimes still do this, for the same reason that you toss an ace to signal to your partner that you hold the boss K, which is honestly just terrible. I think this is just some bad habit I picked up as an amateur, where going by that logic, I would announce to my partner that I held the boss K, and that they should lead trump under any circumstance, because they would be much less inclined to lead if they only had an ace left.

However, this backfired constantly, they would lead me the same suit back, and it would often get trumped. I also don't think it should specifically mean to lead that suit, trump would always be preferable instead. If anything, this shouldn't even be so much as a signal than it is just the rare hand where you could not go alone, but have all trump and aces.


Playing the Ace out of an AK is not terrible in this spot theoretically. The real problem is virtually nobody reads this spot well. Even experts screw this spot up. In fact there is only one player I know in the euchre world who reads this spot well and plays it correctly: Edward. When the dealer-maker shows an off ace on the first lead, say for example the dealer called spades, and a diamond was led and you take the first trick with the AD and the dealer throws off an (Card_A-C) .

This specially means: Lead trump, but if you don't have trump DO NOT LEAD A CLUB. Often times in euchre when your P throws away an off Ace it means you can lead that suit assuming you don't have a better lead, but this is an exception to the rule. When your P calls as the dealer and throws away an off ace on the first lead he is telling you DO NOT LEAD THIS SUIT BACK.

BTW you have already figured out why this is so. Becuz if S2 leads the suit of that Ace the enemy is very likely to trump in and take the trick those times the dealer-maker has the King of that suit. And if S3 takes that trick, this could end in disaster as the maker is now in a squeeze spot.

Ok, so when the dealer-maker plays an off ace on the first lead after S2 takes the trick, S2's best lead is unequivocally trump. The maker's most likely remaining hand after this action is 3 non-bower trump + a boss card. That hand is begging for a trump lead. If S2 has no trump--already knowing he should not lead the suit of the maker's ace--then his best lead is his cleanest suit to lower the probability as much as possible of the maker getting overtrumped. And should your lead find your maker's other ace--those times the maker started with 3 non-bower trump + 2 off aces--that ace has a good chance of walking since you led your cleanest suit.

Ok let's go back to my first sentence: "Playing the Ace out of an AK is not terrible in this spot theoretically. "

Unfortunately in practice you should NOT play the Ace out of an AK set becuz virtually EVERY player will read this spot wrong and lead you that suit. But if for example you are playing with me or Edward, playing the Ace is now your best play becuz we understand EXACTLY what that means. This is a spot me and Edward have talked about a lot and it actually frustrates us that we can't show the Ace in that spot in our tournament unless we have each other as partners.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:41 am

You not making good sense.
The dealer made trump, if he sloughs an Ace what else does he reasonably have?

1) Four trump and lead trump, of course lead trump and secondly, to to that suit or any suit is a good lead, even an ace if you have it.

2) Dealer has three trumps and the King of that suit so lead trump or the other two suits (not the ace suit). But it is better that the dealer sloughed the King not the Ace. However, you can now trick your partner because more often than not, playing the King is now a void in that suit. Of course in any situation that would demand a lead of trump. But any lead is acceptable of any off suit, even an ace.

3) The dealer has three trumps that Ace and an off suit which he should then it's another Ace. Or if not an ace, he should have voided that other none suit card to create a void instead of that Ace (you can forget this).

4) The dealer has two high trumps with King to that Ace and another Ace but if that were true he would or should have gone alone. So knock that one out!

5) The dealer has two high trumps with a doubleton off suit not an Ace and that would not be a good slough as well.

6) If S2 won the trick, that rules out one suit so his alternatives are very limited if he does not have a trump to lead. Certainly don't lead from Three. And if he does not have a trump, hes has two doubletons.

5) Unless S2 had the Left or Ace singleton trump, he be playing 2nd Hand Low because he has nothing to lead. Their are many combinations, unless an ace is led by S1 he should leave the trick alone.

7) If I had four small trumps with an ace, I am trumping his ace trick, and leading Trump.

Good players don't slough an Ace to the first unless they are loaded and if so they should have gone alone except as noted above posts.

IRISHWOLF

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:25 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:41 am
You not making good sense.


Part of what I said did not make good sense. I have to clarify.

I said this:
Ok, so when the dealer-maker plays an off ace on the first lead after S2 takes the trick, S2's best lead is unequivocally trump. The maker's most likely remaining hand after this action is 3 non-bower trump + a boss card. That hand is begging for a trump lead. If S2 has no trump--already knowing he should not lead the suit of the maker's ace--then his best lead is his cleanest suit to lower the probability as much as possible of the maker getting overtrumped.
The dealer made trump, if he sloughs an Ace what else does he reasonably have?
The bold doesn't make much sense. I think I was too tired last night. After that action, S2's options are very limited if S2 doesn't have trump. S2 obviously doesn't wanna double lead the suit played on the first lead, so it's simple enough to say that if S2 does not have trump he should not lead the suit of the Ace shown but lead the other suit if he can. So if spades is trump and if S2 wins the opening lead with the AD and the dealer shows the AC, S2 should always lead a heart if he has no trump. If S2 doesn't have that heart. If all he has left are diamonds and clubs then don't double lead the diamond and now lead clubs. The take home message tho is when S2 takes the opening diamond lead, and S4 throws off the AC, S2 should lead a heart if he has one those times he has no trump.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:27 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:41 am
The dealer made trump, if he sloughs an Ace what else does he reasonably have?

1) Four trump and lead trump, of course lead trump and secondly, to to that suit or any suit is a good lead, even an ace if you have it.
If my player is a strong player I would assume he can never have 4 trump + an off ace as he would've went alone, so I would rule this hand out. That said, I am not convinced that this hand is a loner:

(Card_K-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-C)

I would go for it but I wouldn't be surprised at all if calling has the higher EV.

That said, even if a strong player had that questionable loner hand in his range, 4 trump is going to be a very small part of his range so I wouldn't worry about that. But even in this case a heart lead from S2 is better than leading the suit of the dealer's sloughed ace. Even in the worst case scenario where S2 is stuck with something like this it's merely a tie:

(Card_J-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_9-C)

Since the dealer sloughed a Next ace, leading a "singleton" 9C is equivalent to leading a fresh tripleton green card. In all other cases leading the heart over the club is the superior lead. So the claim that S2 should always lead a heart if he has one when he holds no trump holds up.
irishwolf wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:41 am
2) Dealer has three trumps and the King of that suit so lead trump or the other two suits (not the ace suit). But it is better that the dealer sloughed the King not the Ace. However, you can now trick your partner because more often than not, playing the King is now a void in that suit. Of course in any situation that would demand a lead of trump. But any lead is acceptable of any off suit, even an ace.
In this specific spot, if me or Edward are your partner, I think it's better to slough the Ace vs the King becuz we will read that perfectly as "do not lead the ace suit" if you have no trump. Becuz the above combo is relatively common in this spot (3 low trump + off boss King), that's primarily why throwing the Ace = don't lead this suit if you can help it. If you play it this way, now those times you DO slough a King on the first lead you will always be void in that suit. I.E. you'll be able to give perfect communication to your P. Unfortunately you can't preserve this perfect communication in real life. You'll have to slough the King over the Ace in this spot becuz if you play the ace too many people read that wrong and lead the same suit back. It's super annoying. Preserving this perfect communication for when you slough a King on the first lead tho is why the Ace is the better slough in this spot in theory.
irishwolf wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:41 am
3) The dealer has three trumps that Ace and an off suit which he should then it's another Ace. Or if not an ace, he should have voided that other none suit card to create a void instead of that Ace (you can forget this).
One thing of note. Say dealer called spades with this hand:

(Card_Q-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_A-H)

And on the opening lead S1 takes the trick with the (Card_A-D)

A heart lead should do better than a club lead in the long run given that there are still 5 hearts in the wild vs 4 clubs in the wild. Given that the dealer-maker has a singleton heart, his AH is very likely to walk and the dealer can obviously never get overtrumped on a heart lead. Of course what really matters is how many hearts/clubs are left in the wild after factoring in S2's hand and if S2 has the worst case scenario hand, 3 hearts and 1 club, then leading that 1 club is best those times S4 has this configuration. Overall in this specific scenario I would still grade leading a heart as generally better than leading a club. Maybe neutral at worst.

irishwolf wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:41 am
4) The dealer has two high trumps with King to that Ace and another Ace but if that were true he would or should have gone alone. So knock that one out!
I think you're referring to those times the dealer has a spade hand like this:

(Card_J-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_K-C) (Card_A-D)

And yes he should go alone in spades BUT those times his team is at 8 or 9 he can have this holding and theoretically I do think sloughing the AC to let his P know not to send that suit if he can help it is the best play.

The dealer could also hold a hand like this:

(Card_J-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C)

And once again, sloughing the AC sends a good message to S2: Don't lead back this suit if you can help it.
irishwolf wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:41 am
5) The dealer has two high trumps with a doubleton off suit not an Ace and that would not be a good slough as well.
I agree. Not a good ace slough. So we can rule that hand out of S4's range assuming he plays well.
irishwolf wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:41 am
6) If S2 won the trick, that rules out one suit so his alternatives are very limited if he does not have a trump to lead. Certainly don't lead from Three. And if he does not have a trump, hes has two doubletons.
Yep his alternatives are very limited which I conveyed poorly in my initial post. Yeah the one scenario we have to worry about is those times S2 is stuck with a hand like this for his 4 remaining cards:

(Card_J-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_9-C)

Those times the dealer has the KC, I think a heart lead is still better but I think it's debatable cuz a club lead does mean the maker can never get overtrumped. Those times the dealer started out with 3 trump + 2 aces, a club lead would be better. But there are times the dealer could have this configuration too:

(Card_J-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C)

Using that as a tie-breaker I suppose leading a heart is marginally better even out of this toxic configuration. IDK if one wants to not lead hearts whenever he has this toxic configuration I'm fine with that. I don't think it matters much. BTW If S2 has this toxic configuration instead:

(Card_A-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_9-C)

Then the AH lead is the clear best lead becuz given that S2 has the AH and the dealer sloughed the AC, the dealer must have the KC. That means there's only 2 more clubs in the wild, but if S2 leads the AH there are 3 hearts still in the wild, so it's a safer/better lead.
irishwolf wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:41 am
5) Unless S2 had the Left or Ace singleton trump, he be playing 2nd Hand Low because he has nothing to lead. Their are many combinations, unless an ace is led by S1 he should leave the trick alone.


That's a different subject that deserves its own thread. For this thread let's just focus on those time's S2 takes the first trick and S4 sloughs an Ace, ignoring whether S2 should've taken the first trick or not.
irishwolf wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:41 am
7) If I had four small trumps with an ace, I am trumping his ace trick, and leading Trump.


I agree, the question is should a good player EVER have 4 trump + Ace in this spot? (assuming score is not at 8 or 9). IOW should we be going alone with this holding:

(Card_K-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-C)

For the record, I always do go alone with that hand, but I've never tested it.
irishwolf wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:41 am
Good players don't slough an Ace to the first unless they are loaded and if so they should have gone alone except as noted above posts.

IRISHWOLF
There are definitely hand combos a good player can have in this spot after just calling. Spade hands like this:

(Card_K-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_A-H)

(Card_Q-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_A-H)

(Card_K-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_K-C)

(Card_Q-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_K-C)

Now I go alone with hands like this:

(Card_A-S) (Card_K-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_A-H)

(Card_A-S) (Card_K-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_K-C)

I've never tested those two hands, so I can't say for sure that going alone beats out calling (altho I'd be very surprised going alone wasn't best in the first example). I think it's reasonable for a good player to have those holdings in his range too.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:49 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:27 pm
The dealer could also hold a hand like this:

(Card_J-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C)

And once again, sloughing the AC sends a good message to S2: Don't lead back this suit if you can help it.
To nit my own post, IF the dealers sloughs the AC on the first lead he actually shouldn't have the above holding. Why? Becuz if he did he's better off sloughing the QC. The reason being, sloughing the QC sends the same message as the AC in theory: DON'T LEAD BACK THIS SUIT.

But sloughing the QC has the added benefit of not letting the enemy know you are covering clubs.

That minor point aside, the general claim is true, when the dealer-maker sloughs the AC on say an opening diamond lead and S2 wins the trick, trump is S2's best lead on 2nd street, and if S2 does not have trump, then hearts is his best lead. The Ace slough should be read as don't lead this suit on 2nd street.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:09 pm

Two comments then I am leaving this situation alone to die of its own merits.

1) To the comment that if the Dealer sloughed the King of the A/K combo it becomes extremely confusing. Yes he could have A/K but statistically speaking, he will have a void in that King suit MORE often than having the Ace. And if he had an ace in one of the other two suits ans S2 does not have a trump to lead, that Ace suit could get trumped. So the question has to be is it really better to slough the King and not the ACE of A/K combo.

2) This hand & comment you posted, it would be a poor decision, IMO to Pass and sit on Next. I certainly would rule that one out, at least how I play.

Wes said, "But there are times the dealer could have this configuration too:

(Card_J-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C)

IRISH

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:50 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:09 pm
Two comments then I am leaving this situation alone to die of its own merits.

1) To the comment that if the Dealer sloughed the King of the A/K combo it becomes extremely confusing. Yes he could have A/K but statistically speaking, he will have a void in that King suit MORE often than having the Ace. And if he had an ace in one of the other two suits ans S2 does not have a trump to lead, that Ace suit could get trumped. So the question has to be is it really better to slough the King and not the ACE of A/K combo.
That's the beauty of always sloughing the Ace in the above configurations I've talked about. Now when the dealer DOES slough a King, he will be void in that suit 100% of the time. So sloughing the Ace allows the dealer to deliver perfect information those times he sloughs a King.

If the dealer has an ace in another suit it will always be a singleton green ace. Yes it could get trumped when S2 doesn't have trump to lead, but it has a great chance of walking too. And S2 leading to the dealer's Ace suit isn't risk-free either those times the dealer is void as the maker could get overtrumped. Overall I think this particular dilemma is a wash at worst, but those times the dealer has the KC after he sloughs the AC, not leading clubs is clearly better. So the general claim: "If you don't have trump, don't lead the suit of the sloughed ace" is still what's best for the dealer-maker's overall range.
irishwolf wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:09 pm
2) This hand & comment you posted, it would be a poor decision, IMO to Pass and sit on Next. I certainly would rule that one out, at least how I play.

Wes said, "But there are times the dealer could have this configuration too:

(Card_J-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C)

IRISH
If you are suggesting the dealer pass that holding to bag Next, I strongly disagree with that. But I suppose that's a topic for another thread. I agree tho that the hand should be ruled out becuz sloughing the QC is actually better than sloughing the AC for reasons said in my last post.

jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:08 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:12 am

Playing the Ace out of an AK is not terrible in this spot theoretically. The real problem is virtually nobody reads this spot well. Even experts screw this spot up. In fact there is only one player I know in the euchre world who reads this spot well and plays it correctly: Edward. When the dealer-maker shows an off ace on the first lead, say for example the dealer called spades, and a diamond was led and you take the first trick with the AD and the dealer throws off an (Card_A-C) .

This specially means: Lead trump, but if you don't have trump DO NOT LEAD A CLUB. Often times in euchre when your P throws away an off Ace it means you can lead that suit assuming you don't have a better lead, but this is an exception to the rule. When your P calls as the dealer and throws away an off ace on the first lead he is telling you DO NOT LEAD THIS SUIT BACK.

BTW you have already figured out why this is so. Becuz if S2 leads the suit of that Ace the enemy is very likely to trump in and take the trick those times the dealer-maker has the King of that suit. And if S3 takes that trick, this could end in disaster as the maker is now in a squeeze spot.

Ok, so when the dealer-maker plays an off ace on the first lead after S2 takes the trick, S2's best lead is unequivocally trump. The maker's most likely remaining hand after this action is 3 non-bower trump + a boss card. That hand is begging for a trump lead. If S2 has no trump--already knowing he should not lead the suit of the maker's ace--then his best lead is his cleanest suit to lower the probability as much as possible of the maker getting overtrumped. And should your lead find your maker's other ace--those times the maker started with 3 non-bower trump + 2 off aces--that ace has a good chance of walking since you led your cleanest suit.

Ok let's go back to my first sentence: "Playing the Ace out of an AK is not terrible in this spot theoretically. "

Unfortunately in practice you should NOT play the Ace out of an AK set becuz virtually EVERY player will read this spot wrong and lead you that suit. But if for example you are playing with me or Edward, playing the Ace is now your best play becuz we understand EXACTLY what that means. This is a spot me and Edward have talked about a lot and it actually frustrates us that we can't show the Ace in that spot in our tournament unless we have each other as partners.
Wes, thanks for the reply, I was already starting to doubt my initial worries here. I originally concluded that showing the A to signal I have the boss K was a good play so long as my partner was also an expert player, but I began to doubt whether or not this was true, mainly because if I had 2 aces here, but 3 lower trump, I would not be able to show anything lower than an ace, while I can show the K instead of the A from an AK set.

However, I no longer believe this is a confusing signal, whether I'm throwing an ace because I have the K or because I am voiding myself of that suit, the end result is mostly the same. A trump lead is absolutely required in this spot, and in both cases leading the suit of the ace is shown is not the best play. Now, in rare cases S2 may have a losing decision to make, and knowing exactly what you're signaling could have helped them make the best choice, but the same can be said for times where S2 has taken a trick, and then only has an ace of trump remaining, whether they used up a small trump or they only had one to begin with.

I believe in this spot that 2nd cannot lead trump, the risk is too great, they should only do so if they have another trump or an off suit ace. So, seeing my partner throw away an ace in this spot would allow me to lead trump, when I would be unable to do so otherwise. I would rather make it easier for my partner to lead the ace here than worry about whether it could be potentially confusing for S2 on what to lead, it probably doesn't matter that much, and depending on whether the ace was green or next, that can make the decision easier.

I'm never expecting a march in this spot or I would have gone alone, so that's not even a consideration. I second guessed whether this is ever a valuable signal to give your partner, as they would always lead trump if they had it, right? Except, there are times where even an expert player should not lead trump, and having just the ace of trump to lead, even if you have taken the 1st trick, could absolutely be one of them.

I was doubting myself in part because of how often this signal is misunderstood, and whether it is effective with an expert partner. I was wrong to doubt myself, this signal should be viewed as a signal that the maker also has the K of that suit, and in rare circumstances, they may be voiding themselves of that suit entirely, but this should have little consequence on the outcome of the hand, both are signals to lead trump under any circumstance.

Oh, and about those non bower loners, I would imagine you have better of odds of taking your partner if you don't at least have the ace of trump, because then you literally need the top 3 trump to be buried in order to make it, and that is a tall order, while your partner just needs the right bower to potentially help you march.

Now, if you do have the ace, then the math is certainly in favor of going alone, as the majority of the time your partner cannot help you, and the times where your loners are successful are equal to or greater than the times your marches would have been successful, and the chance of being euchred is incredibly slim.

As for 3 trump non bower loners, I'm all for the 2 ace variant, but there's little chance that a suited AK is good for anything other than a desperation loner, the opponents need very little to euchre you on such a call. They only need 1 bower between the two of them, and for one person to have 2 trump, and be void in your off suit, which is very little compared to what you need to make this loner.

I didn't test this extensively, but a small sample of 10-20 hands did not seem promising at all.

jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:21 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:50 pm
That's the beauty of always sloughing the Ace in the above configurations I've talked about. Now when the dealer DOES slough a King, he will be void in that suit 100% of the time. So sloughing the Ace allows the dealer to deliver perfect information those times he sloughs a King.
That's a really interesting point, that certainly had slipped my mind. So, this also assumes that if the dealer only had a KQ doubleton to discard, that they would always show the Q here, as the makers team should always show lower doubletons to their partner, but if you were to lead a doubleton, then of course you would play the high card.

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:51 pm

Generally It's looked at as telling your partner that you have that suit covered, with thinking players. with average to below average players that means they have none of that suit.


Tbolt65
Edward

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