8-23-21 OE Monday - Here's an interesting hand

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Dlan
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8-23-21 OE Monday - Here's an interesting hand

Unread post by Dlan » Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:14 pm




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LeftyK
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Unread post by LeftyK » Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:22 pm

looks like an even call to me - loners for the opponents elsewhere. that's euchre.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:34 pm

There is a time & place to trump your partner's ace, and this was that!

IRISHWOLF

knglenny
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Unread post by knglenny » Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:27 am

irishwolf wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:34 pm
There is a time & place to trump your partner's ace, and this was that!

IRISHWOLF
I see this was a great play. What circumstances create a situation to trump a partner's ace?

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:57 pm

knglenny wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:27 am
irishwolf wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:34 pm
There is a time & place to trump your partner's ace, and this was that!

IRISHWOLF
I see this was a great play. What circumstances create a situation to trump a partner's ace?
There are many circumstances but I'm just gonna talk about this hand. S3 made an expert play. Scratch that. I don't think it's an expert play becuz most experts would screw this spot up. The better term would be world class play.

I've played over 30K games and I can count on one hand how many players have the ability to do what S3 did. But why is it an world class play? How do we really know it's correct. After all, every time the maker has a club in his hand S3's play is obviously NOT correct. But that's the thing. The maker is very unlikely to have a club in his hand and S3 knows that. How does S3 know that or more importantly how can we know that? To solve this riddle it just takes a little logic + hand reading. Here we go:

S3 holds the Right and the dealer still picks up. Holding the Right, S3 knows that when the dealer picks up his most likely hand is one that contains 3 trump. S3 also knows that the maker showed a spade on the first lead. Ok well if the maker's most likely hand is 3 trump and we already know a spade was one of his other cards we can reconstruct the maker's 6 card hand before he picks up and creates a void. Lets go back and do that. The upcard was the (Card_Q-H) , so the maker's other 5 cards have to look something like this before he picks up and creates a void (ignore the denomination, focus on the suit):

(Card_9-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_9-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_9-S)

(Card_9-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_9-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_9-C)

(Card_9-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_9-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_9-D)

(Card_9-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_9-S) (Card_9-C) (Card_9-D)

Note the maker can never have a configuration like the following:

(Card_9-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_9-S) (Card_9-C) (Card_9-C)

Becuz he would void himself in spades and we saw that he has a spade on the first lead.

Notice in the case where the maker has 2 spades he's voiding himself in the other suit, and in the case where the maker's other non-trump cards are one of each suit the maker is going to void himself in clubs if he tends to void himself in green as most players do (as we already know he didn't void himself in the other green suit, spades). IOW a typical dealer who voids himself in green and picks up in this spot with 3 trump and shows a spade on the first lead will almost never have a non-ace club in his hand. So when S1 leads the AC, S3 knows that ace is no good, that the maker is gonna trump in and then most likely lead trump. Just holding the Right and knowing the club lead is gonna be the maker's trick S3 correctly burns his right on his P's AC lead for 2 key reasons:

1) Every time S1 has the Left or a Ax in trump, S3's play of trumping his P's ace nets the instant euchre.

2) By trumping in with the Right, S3 gets the lead "in the wrong spot" from the perspective of the maker. When S3 takes the lead that puts the maker in a semi-squeeze spot on 3rd street where the maker is vulnerable to getting overtrumped and thus getting euchred. Even if S1 has just a singleton ace of trump or king of trump, he now has a chance at overtrumping the maker for the euchre. As an added bonus to this ploy S3 has a great lead on 3rd street that increases the chances of the maker getting overtrumped, an effective quadrupleton diamond lead.

As I say on defense, don't just mindlessly play your cards. Always play for the euchre. And that's exactly what S3 did.

Other tidbits:

1) If the maker had 4 trump, it's even more clear that S3 should trump his P's AC with the Right, as the maker would now be trump-tight and guaranteed to lead trump on 3rd street. As before, not trumping the AC lead does nothing for S3's team, but trumping in prevents both bowers falling on the same lead those times S1 has the lone Left and also converts a sure euchre those times S1 has A-X in trump, and gets the lead "in the wrong spot" setting up other euchre opportunities for S3's team.

2) S1's 2nd street lead of the AC was actually incorrect. Holding the Left, the correct lead for S1 on 2nd street was the JS. Double leading spades when it looks like the maker doesn't have any more spades signals to S3 to trump as high as possible. A high trump by S3 can promote S1's Left to boss status or this double lead can bring out the Right bower from S3 those times he has it. This is another play only world class players/teams understand. Again, out of the thousands of players I've played with, I can count on one hand those who get this.

jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:12 pm

Wes, it's good to see you back! Now, I must say that I find it curious you would call this a "world class play" from 3rd, because it just seems incredibly obvious to me? Even if you aren't thinking about how many trump the dealer has, you simply have to know the odds that the dealer having to follow suit in both of your partner's aces is slim, and you have great odds of securing a euchre by trumping the 2nd trick, and leading back a tripleton next suit.

The only potential remaining cards in this suit are the 9D and AD, and if your partner just so happens to be void in diamonds, then all they need is to have a single trump that's greater than the dealer's middle trump in order to achieve the euchre, barring 2nd can't over trump it, and if your partner has just the left, as in this case, then the euchre is already guaranteed. Now, this tripleton next suit is just the icing on the cake, I would also trump here and lead back a spade if I had a second one.

I would hope that my partner is void in spades since they didn't try to lead it a second time. Any way I look at it, taking two tricks, and then leading back across the dealer is a stronger play than putting all my chips on the dealer having a club, and that being the sole route to a euchre. It's more likely that my partner and I hold a single trump, and that a trump lead will knock them both out. Instead, I have given my partner the option to trump in after the dealer, and depending on the cards they're holding, the euchre may already be guaranteed.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:31 pm

I think I need to reply further on the hand just so y'all know what was going through my head at S3. But Wes did a great job of breaking it down. These decisions come very quickly, no hesitation and that means I have been in similar situations before. So actually, to me, it was a no brainer. The AS trick went through for trick 1 and the dealer played the KS, me the QS. So what does he, S4 hold? Most likely three three or four trumps (and probably that AD but it could be a club as well). But with trumps out, it still leaves two trumps that could possibly be one high trump with my partner, at S1 (Eldest). If he does not trump high enough, my partner can overtrump the dealer.
My JH is not guarded and I just know the dealer is void in clubs and will trump that AC, lead trump to trick 3. The dealer holding two off suit singletons and one is not an ace is statistically low probability.
In addition, I hold three diamonds, the JD is a trump, and that leaves only two diamonds unknown. That is really a statistical fact that he will be void in diamonds, 50%. Even if he has a club, I do not want my JH falling to a trump lead. I want the dealer in a squeeze regardless if he has a club or not.

All that is actually packed into a split decision because I have been there before and it is the best play to get a euchre. But I was not surprised the Dealer sloughed his AD to my JH. He is in a real spot because if he uses his highest trump, my partner might have the next highest. If he trumps with a middle trump my partner might be able to over trump and that is what usually occurs. Even if I held the K, A, Left or Right, I still would have trumped his AC. Same principle applies especially when I have three diamonds in this case or if I had another Spade as well. Set up the squeeze. Sure I would have been mistaken, my partner could have void in trump or had one of those diamonds. Regardless, you go for the best strategy, he didn't have a club and I knew that with a very high degree of confidence. He not going to win that AC trick with the 9H or 10H.

Wes might be giving me too much credit (I was at S3) because good players do not have to wait and analyze because they have been there before. What to do comes in 1/2 second (for real). In psychology of studying 'expert play' it has been shown that experts rely their 'working memory' that quickly sorts through similar situations as to what should be done.

I won't go into details of the study of 'expert play' which has been done for chess (and other topics too) has been researched extensively. So are experts gifted or does it come with deliberate practice. The answer, deliberate study and practice to build that library of situational play. But it's real!

So I was detailed just so you might know the workings of my mind on that play. It was fun to watch it play out on trick 3. I said to my partner, you have to post that one!

The hand and how to play is a learning exercise.

IRISHWOLF

P.S.
I do agree, S1 leading another spade would have been better regardless of what S3 held because if the dealer has a club S1 has the AC for later in the hand. Low probability that S2 can assist so he could slough it!


knglenny » Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:27 am

irishwolf wrote: ↑

There is a time & place to trump your partner's ace, and this was that!

I see this was a great play. What circumstances create a situation to trump a partner's ace?

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:35 pm

jspectre wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:12 pm
Wes, it's good to see you back! Now, I must say that I find it curious you would call this a "world class play" from 3rd, because it just seems incredibly obvious to me? Even if you aren't thinking about how many trump the dealer has, you simply have to know the odds that the dealer having to follow suit in both of your partner's aces is slim, and you have great odds of securing a euchre by trumping the 2nd trick, and leading back a tripleton next suit.
In my experience expert players know to trump their P's Ace in this spot with say the Ace of trump or a lone Left, and other trump--if they don't theyre not experts--but they will incorrectly hold onto the lone Right hoping the AC walks for the instant euchre. That's what's world class about this play: knowing you need to burn the Right on your P's Ace. This play and level of skill is extremely rare. For example I don't recall ever seeing this play at my tournament and I can't recall the last time I've seen this seen this play on the app.

jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:46 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:35 pm
jspectre wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:12 pm
Wes, it's good to see you back! Now, I must say that I find it curious you would call this a "world class play" from 3rd, because it just seems incredibly obvious to me? Even if you aren't thinking about how many trump the dealer has, you simply have to know the odds that the dealer having to follow suit in both of your partner's aces is slim, and you have great odds of securing a euchre by trumping the 2nd trick, and leading back a tripleton next suit.
In my experience expert players know to trump their P's Ace in this spot with say the Ace of trump or a lone Left, and other trump--if they don't theyre not experts--but they will incorrectly hold onto the lone Right hoping the AC walks for the instant euchre. That's what's world class about this play: knowing you need to burn the Right on your P's Ace. This play and level of skill is extremely rare. For example I don't recall ever seeing this play at my tournament and I can't recall the last time I've seen this seen this play on the app.
Well, if the end result here is that I'm simply world class, I won't protest, but an expert player should absolutely be trumping here with the right, and the tripleton next suit just makes it that much more obvious, because there's only 2 possible cards in that suit still in play. But even without having that, securing the 2nd trick and denying the maker an opportunity to lead trump, and then leading through him, is a very powerful tactic, and very likely gives your team the best chances to secure a euchre. Anyone who just lets this ace go by and misses a golden opportunity can't call themselves an expert. I don't even need the math to know which play has a higher chance of succeeding.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1423
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:24 am

irishwolf wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:31 pm
Wes might be giving me too much credit (I was at S3) because good players do not have to wait and analyze because they have been there before. What to do comes in 1/2 second (for real). In psychology of studying 'expert play' it has been shown that experts rely their 'working memory' that quickly sorts through similar situations as to what should be done.

I won't go into details of the study of 'expert play' which has been done for chess (and other topics too) has been researched extensively. So are experts gifted or does it come with deliberate practice. The answer, deliberate study and practice to build that library of situational play. But it's real!

So I was detailed just so you might know the workings of my mind on that play. It was fun to watch it play out on trick 3. I said to my partner, you have to post that one!
I agree 100% with what you said, and that's how I approach euchre and poker. Constantly studying the game and building up that library of spots where you know exactly what to do becuz you've been there before through play + study and thus you can execute quickly. In poker it's even more critical to execute quickly since any sincere pause gives away information that one's opponents can possibly exploit. I'm certainly no genius. I screw up in novel situations all the time, but once I study a spot, master it, and put it in the library it's there forever and I won't mess it up again.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1423
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:32 am

jspectre wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:12 pm
Wes, it's good to see you back!
I've been playing a lot of poker recently. That plus my gf has kinda distracted me from euchre a bit. I can get burnt out euchre from time to time but I'll always come back. I'll always love this game.

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