Always Donate?

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RedDuke
Posts: 278
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Always Donate?

Post by RedDuke » Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:58 pm

We were playing a series of games against the same opponents earlier today.

First game, we are up 5-2.

I'm sitting in first seat holding:

(Card_9-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_Q-H) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-S)

Turn card is the jacks of clubs. I instinctively pass, then kick myself thinking that I really should have called it despite having nothing. What happened? The dealer picks it up, goes alone, and makes the sweep. We end up losing the game 9-10. If I would have donated, we probably would have won. (We did end up winning the series, with all three games being extremely close).

Need to get that instinct when to donate. A lot of people say not to block if you aren't at the bridge, but in this case we weren't even there yet. Nevertheless, this failure on my part probably cost us the game.



irishwolf
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:44 pm

YEP, could not agree more. When the Jack is up!

Look at it this way: Are you going to spoil your partner hand? (no) You have nothing, no aces - if they euchre you - are you giving up 2 points? (no) Giving up one at best with that hand if your partner has a stopper. But you can stop a Sweep (same as being euchred) and most important a Loner!

MUST STOP LONERS TO BE A WINNER! You will not be right all the time. Generally, a team can afford 2 euchres and still win a game, not 3 euchres and certainly not a loner. 2 euchres = one loner! Just my thinking!

A MYTH:
A lot of people say not to block if you aren't at the bridge,... This is not automatic for me unless the Jack is up! Take a euchre at 7 to 9, and the opponents will still win the game about 30 - 35%. So how to take your chances becomes critical. It comes down to knowing when is when!

It's a tough world out there, lol!

Irishwolf

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:54 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:58 pm
First game, we are up 5-2.

I'm sitting in first seat holding:

(Card_9-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_Q-H) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-S)

Turn card is the jacks of clubs.
You picked the exact worst spot in the game, or depending on how you look at it, the exact best spot to donate. No trump no aces vs a Jack upcard is a nightmare spot, the greatest of all nightmares. That spot is so bad it might actually be correct to donate ANY time your opponents have less than 8 points. Yes I am actually implicitly suggesting that donating may be correct here even if you're down 7-0!!!

The idea goes something like this: Whenever you are in this nightmare spot, where you have no trump no aces in seat 1 vs a Jack upcard, expectation-wise you have probably already lost close to 2 points anyways--that's how bad this spot is, so you might as well donate to prevent a 4 point freeroll.

Now I've just made an extraordinary claim and whenever that happens you have the rational right, in fact more like the rational responsibility to be extremely skeptical. Whenever someone makes such a bold claim in any card game your first response should always be, "Cool story bro, show me the math".

And I don't have the math so I won't get offended at all if you don't accept my claim, but for the love of god plz accept this much more palatable not so extraordinary claim: Whenever you're up 2+ points and you have no trump no aces vs a Jack upcard ALWAYS donate.

Scratch that, I wanna get greedier: No matter what that upcard is, if you have no trump no aces with a 2+ point lead ALWAYS donate.

RedDuke
Posts: 278
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:42 am

Nah, honestly, I don't have to see the math. If there's a jack upcard, that's one guaranteed trick for the opponents regardless. I have no trump, so somebody probably has an outsized amount. It might be my partner, but if my partner is sitting in third seat with five trumps, we aren't going to be euchred regardless. It's more likely that one of the opponents has a ton of them, and if it's the dealer...

Actually, even if it's second seat with a killer hand, there might be a loner. I've ordered the right up to my partner more than once and then went alone myself.

Plus, you have to wonder who is loaded with aces? Again, might be your partner, but it's more likely the opponents.

RedDuke
Posts: 278
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:20 pm

Well, had a game last night that really showed the power of donating. I'm in first seat, holding three diamonds (A-K-J) and two trash black cards. Three suited. Dealer turns up Jack of Hearts.

As we were up 7-2, I ordered up the right despite having only the left in my hand.

Well, with the way it played out, after the pickup, dealer had Right-A-K-Q and an offsuit Ace. Needless to say, stopping that loner call probably won the game for us.

irishwolf
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:26 am

That's cool RedDuke - good job!

That unguarded Left is as bad if not worse than having none or the 9h. Because you have reduced the odds that your partner has it guarded.

Even though on your previous note, "you don't have to see the math" ... the math is still there, just hiding! lol

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:26 am

RedDuke wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:20 pm
Well, had a game last night that really showed the power of donating. I'm in first seat, holding three diamonds (A-K-J) and two trash black cards. Three suited. Dealer turns up Jack of Hearts.

As we were up 7-2, I ordered up the right despite having only the left in my hand.

Well, with the way it played out, after the pickup, dealer had Right-A-K-Q and an offsuit Ace. Needless to say, stopping that loner call probably won the game for us.
Perfect spot to donate. NH

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