My Mistake(s)?

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knglenny
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:25 pm

My Mistake(s)?

Unread post by knglenny » Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:10 pm

Hey All, was playing a game on 3D. Score is 6-9 (losing) I'm in seat 3. I have to admit i was on tilt, so I didn't track all the cards but here is how it played out.

(Card_Q-C) up. 1 and 2 pass to me, I hold

(Card_J-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_A-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-H)

I passed, just reacted, hoping for them to pick up or for my partner to call next. I should have ordered up, I think that was only about 2.0 on BPS but they have 9.

Dealer orders up, so I assume they are 3 trump suits (w/ left) or they are preventing a next loner.

Anyway, Partner, S1, leads (Card_A-H) and we all follow suit.

Round 2 they lead (Card_K-D) I struggled with what to do, played my (Card_9-C) hoping dealer had the (Card_A-D) and I can complete the euchre. Dealer overtrumps with (Card_Q-C)

Round 3 dealer leads (Card_A-C) my partner lays (Card_J-S) and I am forced to play my (Card_J-C)

Round 4 I lead my (Card_A-S) dealer trumps in with (Card_K-C)

Round 5 dealer plays (Card_K-H) which goes and we lose.

So, in hindsight knowing my partner had the left, I should have trumped in with the right in round 2. However, what really sent me on tilt was my partner had the (Card_A-D) but led the (Card_K-D) in round 2. Had they led the ace, I would have thrown off and we would have won.

So was it all on me, or did my partner mess up as well?

Also, what is the 'standard' play for me in round 2?



irishwolf
Posts: 1201
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:12 pm

This an interesting hand. Yes it would have been better that your partner not false carded you with KD lead. But had I been in your shoes I would have done a little trickery and actually sloughed my QS to that KD lead.

Okay, why, so that the dealer even if he had had the AD or trump the diamond. You would hold the JC 9C AS in great shape regardless of what his/your partner did.

I think your partner false carded you so that you would trump high on his KD. I would hate to use the Right bower so early but it put you in a pickle. With two aces, he should have led his left to trick one. And definitely not led a diamond to trick two or false carded you as the dealer most likely will be void in Diamonds with two losers. Your partner could not be loaded in trump because he is leading his aces. A good assumption the dealer has three trumps and probably an ace to boot.

Alternatively, S1 has two approaches that should have used. If S1 does not lead trump first, your partner should have led the AD to the first trick as now he still has AH, KD JS in a better situation to euchre the dealer and get his partner (you) into the action. But that is just how I would have played S1 & S3 hands given the information you provided.

IRISH

All, was playing a game on 3D. Score is 6-9 (losing) I'm in seat 3. I have to admit i was on tilt, so I didn't track all the cards but here is how it played out.

(Card_Q-C) up. 1 and 2 pass to me, I hold

(Card_J-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_A-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-H)

I passed, just reacted, hoping for them to pick up or for my partner to call next. I should have ordered up, I think that was only about 2.0 on BPS but they have 9.

Dealer orders up, so I assume they are 3 trump suits (w/ left) or they are preventing a next loner.

Anyway, Partner, S1, leads (Card_A-H) and we all follow suit.

Round 2 they lead (Card_K-D) I struggled with what to do, played my (Card_9-C) hoping dealer had the (Card_A-D) and I can complete the euchre. Dealer overtrumps with (Card_Q-C)

Round 3 dealer leads (Card_A-C) my partner lays (Card_J-S) and I am forced to play my (Card_J-C)

Round 4 I lead my (Card_A-S) dealer trumps in with (Card_K-C)

Round 5 dealer plays (Card_K-H) which goes and we lose.

So, in hindsight knowing my partner had the left, I should have trumped in with the right in round 2 (YOU CAN'T ASSUME THAT]. However, what really sent me on tilt was my partner had the (Card_A-D) but led the (Card_K-D) in round 2. Had they led the ace, I would have thrown off and we would have won.

So was it all on me, or did my partner mess up as well?
Last edited by irishwolf on Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Richardb02
Posts: 740
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Unread post by Richardb02 » Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:22 pm

Great post knglenny, especially under duress. Great analysis by Irish. I enjoyed it so much, I recreated the hand. I just used “x” for inconsequential cards.
Up Card (Card_Q-C)
S1 (Card_J-S) (Card_A-H) (Card_A-D) (Card_K-D) x
S2 xxxxx
S3 (Card_J-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_A-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-H)
S4 (Card_A-C) (Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_K-H) (Card_9-H)

Str 1 (Card_A-H) x (Card_10-H) xh
Str 2 (Card_K-D) x (Card_9-C) (Card_Q-C)
Str 3 (Card_A-C) (Card_J-S) x (Card_J-C)
Str 4 (Card_A-S) (Card_K-C) x x
Str 5 (Card_K-H) x x (Card_Q-S)

R1S3, I would pass, even down 6-9. (BPS is 2.0 as stated).The potential Next is too powerful to “order weak when the 2nd round possibility is so great.”
R1S4 is a powerful hand, BPS 4.0. You simply ran into a powerful hand.
Str 1, S1 Ah lead makes sense. Ironically, if you ordered R1S3, S1 should have lead the Lc and takes the trick. His (Card_A-H) takes a trick. Your (Card_J-C) wins the hand. Euchre is a game of chance. You can’t avoid euchres. You can only manage euchres.
Str 2, S1 Kd lead. For me and B&C players I recommend leading the Ad, play your power and don’t confuse your partner (false card). Your Ad, most likely, will take the trick or draw a trump from opponents. Irish’s point about false carding S3 so that S3 trump’s high is 100% correct. S3 playing the Right would have won the hand! I am still weak on this play and appreciate the expert guidance.
Irish’s point, Str 1, Leading the Ad is an excellent, General Principle for B&C players. (I just added it to my GP’s). If you have A and AK both in the Green Suit and the lead, play the Ace from the Doubleton AK! There is a high probability of the other Green Suit coming back to you and your Ace is boss!
Thank you Irish.

knglenny
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:25 pm

Unread post by knglenny » Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:14 pm

Thanks everyone! This makes me feel better.

I get the idea of false carding, and that makes sense in hindsight. However, what I don't understand is in the position I was in, how would I determine it was a false card play (to my recollection that is the first time I've run across it).

All that being said, had I only had the right and not paired with another trump I'm not sure if I would have thrown it. I probably would have hoped the Kd rode. If it didn't, I would hope S4 leads trump to suck it out. I take the trick and pray the As is good. Man, euchre is hard, and I love it.

I have a pretty good handle on BPS, but I know I pass hands that I probably should be ordering b/c I just don't know how to play them.

I'm probably a bit whiney b/c I'm on an epic losing streak, haha. I definitely understand that some calls are going to get euchred and the same call 4 hands later is going to pull all 5 tricks.

It's just how to play it, I know there are times I make mistakes and I have a hard time telling if it was a mistake in THAT particular moment or a mistake in general. But that is what the forum is for, right?

Edit: Leading the Ad makes sense to me. Fair chance it plays one of three ways:

A) S4 trumps, on Str2 leads back the 10h, S1 takes with Ace, S1 leads Js assuming S4 doesn't have Jc. I lay 9c and we win

B) Same as A, but S1 leads Kd, I now know S4 doesn't have any diamonds, put out my big trump or I lay off, let S4 burn a trump and I'm sitting Jc & 9c throwing last. Truth be told there, I'm probably laying off

C) S4 trumps and on Str2 leads trump, S1 takes with Js, I throw 9c. S1 follows with Ah and we win

Richardb02
Posts: 740
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Unread post by Richardb02 » Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:25 pm

knglenny, you have the right attitude and general approach. You learn, play, learn, play and repeat. My general guidance is to emphasize learning more and playing less. The game is starting to make more sense to you. The forum and OE Lessons now make more sense to you. When you play, you should include OE games, especially Monday nights, which was established to help improving players. One great advantage is that you can save the hands, replay them, post them and ask your questions with 100% of the details.

More specific guidance is to order more aggressively and learn to play the weaker hands. BPS suggests ordering weaker hands. By playing the weaker, arguably positive EVo (Expected Value outcome) hands, you will learn to play your cards more and more effectively.

I responded to your post on the B&C forum about “What to Lead.” My guidance was to read or re-read the appropriate OE lessons. Then post what you have learned. Also ask any follow up questions. You are on your way to playing better and better Euchre.



XaviRonaldo
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:41 am

Unread post by XaviRonaldo » Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:09 am

Holding the left your partner may have led the king instead of the ace hoping you had a high trump to force out the right from the dealer. They had no idea you had it.

This tactic can work well for a stopper but I don't think it's a good idea when you NEED to win the hand. You'll probably need all your trumps to get tricks

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