Random game 8-11-21

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Dlan
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Random game 8-11-21

Unread post by Dlan » Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:13 pm

I can not stress this enough, euchre must be played as a partner's game.

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irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Thu Aug 12, 2021 12:25 am

Not sure who the player is at West, but he/she makes two mistakes. Not leading trump on trick two and not trumping on trick 4.

N/S has two trumps and makes a point? Amazing West deserves to lose.

Just really bad euchre playing!

IRISH

jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Thu Aug 12, 2021 3:50 pm

I'm not sure I follow your description here, W plays off on diamonds and allows his partner to take a trick, seeing as that is all his team needs to score a point. The problem is that W has no understanding of donating, and therefore they can't anticipate that E would order up a jack with no trump. If anyone is to blame here it should be E, leading a tripleton club (and the 10C as opposed to the Q/K, a needless mistake) that could very well screw up his team, as opposed to an AS that would need to be dealt with. Yes, 1st can trump the AS, but they will most likely lead their singleton AC rather than a tripleton diamond, and no matter what transpires from this point onward, the maker's team will secure a point.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:39 pm

Not sure who your comment is directed to. My analysis is petty clear and straight forward. Dealer did not over trump the KH, thus he only has the JH. LEAD trump (S3) as he only has the JH.

You & S3 make no sense to trust the diamond trick. Make the dealer over trump. There is a time to trust, but not on the diamond trick.

It not rocket science.

IRISH

jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:13 pm

Irish, I would have indicated if I was replying to you. You also missed the point I was making. It's not a question of whether playing off on the diamond is a good play, the point is that W allowed his partner to take a trick, he isn't just trying to do it all himself, which contradicts the statement made in the opening post. The issue is not that W isn't playing a partner's game, it's simply that W is not a good player, and has no understanding of donations. However, you ignored the fact that E made a questionable lead, and that if the AS had been led, the maker's team would have been guaranteed a point if S1 played his singleton AC after trumping the AS.

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Dlan
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Unread post by Dlan » Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:26 pm

I agree that west most likely didn’t realize east was blocking. But he should have. The best hand east could have would be 9,10, Q. Another clue would have been the low club lead. Would anyone order the right with such a weak holding? What could be going on here? Why did my partner call? As a partner, these are the questions one may want to consider during play.

It is the job of a partner to help the maker. No one that names trump wants the right out against them. A trump lead would either pulled the right or possibly taken a trick should the dealer be able to duck. Here the partner is only playing his hand with little regard for the bidder.

Beyond that, there are 12 slots that the Ac could be in. Leading the Kc while holding back the 9 makes no sense. Better to lead the 9 in hopes of setting up the king as the boss spade.

Euchre must be played as a partner's game. Once trump is named, it's up to the partner to help in any way they can. That goes no matter who called.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:27 pm

jspectre, you make no sense stating: "You also missed the point I was making. It's not a question of whether playing off on the diamond is a good play, the point is that W allowed his partner to take a trick, he isn't just trying to do it all himself, which contradicts the statement made in the opening post..."

If S1 leads his AS or a club, a point results by S1/S3. A club was led, and played incorrectly by S3. Except that it was a great lead if the Dealer only has the JH so S3 can force the JH and to over trump S2.

Dumb luck or good lead W/E should have made a point.

Once S1 leads a low club, it does not matter that S3 knows or does not know his partner has Donated. S3 has a great chance to make a point. And he played like a bozo clown.

When donating you always have to be aware that your partner has chance, about 20%, to actually make a point. So if S3 plays his hand correctly it now becomes in this hand irrelevant as S1 only has to follow suit after the first lead. He led 10C, it does not matter what card he led as S2 has the AC and S3 has a void to trump. Then game is on to make a point.

Overall, great concept about playing as a Partnership, but a poor example to discuss what a Partnership is all about, IMO.

IRISH

jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:41 pm

Dlan wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:26 pm
I agree that west most likely didn’t realize east was blocking. But he should have. The best hand east could have would be 9,10, Q. Another clue would have been the low club lead. Would anyone order the right with such a weak holding? What could be going on here? Why did my partner call? As a partner, these are the questions one may want to consider during play.

It is the job of a partner to help the maker. No one that names trump wants the right out against them. A trump lead would either pulled the right or possibly taken a trick should the dealer be able to duck. Here the partner is only playing his hand with little regard for the bidder.

Beyond that, there are 12 slots that the Ac could be in. Leading the Kc while holding back the 9 makes no sense. Better to lead the 9 in hopes of setting up the king as the boss spade.

Euchre must be played as a partner's game. Once trump is named, it's up to the partner to help in any way they can. That goes no matter who called.
Yes, if W was a good player, then they would know that a non-trump lead on a 1st seat call is most likely a donation, and a low off suit lead is an even greater indication of that. However, W is simply not a good player, and does not understand these types of concepts.

I simply disagree that W is not trying to help his partner or playing the game as a partner, they simply lack the expertise to know the correct plays in this scenario, including their lead of the KS over the 9S. I also refuse to believe that leading a tripleton club (and especially leading the low suit instead of the K/Q) is not a mistake, when you have a doubleton ace that could very well go through or at least needs to be dealt with, while leading from a tripleton suit could easily put your team at a disadvantage.

If I was W then I would be led to believe you either hold no aces or it is in a tripleton suit, and that you likely only have a single trump at best, I could easily end up trumping your AS in certain situations. I would still score a point in this particular situation no matter what was led, but I believe there's certainly merit in the idea that the better lead is the one that would score a point even with a more inexperienced player, and that was the AS.

jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:53 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:27 pm
jspectre, you make no sense stating: "You also missed the point I was making. It's not a question of whether playing off on the diamond is a good play, the point is that W allowed his partner to take a trick, he isn't just trying to do it all himself, which contradicts the statement made in the opening post..."

If S1 leads his AS or a club, a point results by S1/S3. A club was led, and played incorrectly by S3. Except that it was a great lead if the Dealer only has the JH so S3 can force the JH and to over trump S2.

Dumb luck or good lead W/E should have made a point.

Once S1 leads a low club, it does not matter that S3 knows or does not know his partner has Donated. S3 has a great chance to make a point. And he played like a bozo clown.

When donating you always have to be aware that your partner has chance, about 20%, to actually make a point. So if S3 plays his hand correctly it now becomes in this hand irrelevant as S1 only has to follow suit after the first lead. He led 10C, it does not matter what card he led as S2 has the AC and S3 has a void to trump. Then game is on to make a point.

Overall, great concept about playing as a Partnership, but a poor example to discuss what a Partnership is all about, IMO.

IRISH
It makes perfect sense, I'm saying that W is just inexperienced, it isn't a question of whether he's not trying to help his partner, he simply doesn't know how to do that, and I have yet to see that be refuted. Now, I simply disagree with your assessment that leading a tripleton club (and the low suit rather than the connected suit, at that) is a great lead if the dealer only has the JH. An ace lead (from a singleton/doubleton) is clearly the best in the scenario that the dealer may only have the right bower, and I would wager that leading the ace here will give your team more chances to score a point in the event that your partner is sitting on hearts.

You're welcome to put all the blame on W, and say that if only they played well, then it didn't matter what suit E led, but when playing with less inexperienced players it's the job of the more experienced player to make things as easy for their partner as humanly possible, and by making a questionable lead, if not an outright mistake, with a low club, the maker has now placed the less inexperienced player into a position where they can lose a winning hand, and some measure of fault must be attributed to the maker in this scenario. I would only have myself to blame if this club lead hurts my team, and the ace lead would have made the hand play out much simpler.

Now, if you simply don't care about the reality of playing with a weaker partner, feel free to disregard this.

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Dlan
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Unread post by Dlan » Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:35 pm

Why yes, this is the point of the post and just maybe it will help others to avoid this type of play
jspectre wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:53 pm
“W is just inexperienced, it isn't a question of whether he's not trying to help his partner, he simply doesn't know how to do that.”
as a side note; There are those that believe an Ace has a better chance of walking after a round of trump has been pulled.

jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:57 pm

Dlan wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:35 pm
Why yes, this is the point of the post and just maybe it will help others to avoid this type of play
jspectre wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:53 pm
“W is just inexperienced, it isn't a question of whether he's not trying to help his partner, he simply doesn't know how to do that.”
as a side note; There are those that believe an Ace has a better chance of walking after a round of trump has been pulled.
I can't help but feel like there's still a contradiction there, but I digress. As for the second point, that should really only apply to aces that are very likely to be trumped, and may allow the opponents to play off as well. Even if an ace lead gets trumped, that's still a trump that has been used up, and in most situations you will be able to stop a march. It's also a different story when you name trump, even if it's a donation, you're still trying to score a point, and the best way to do that simply has to be leading a doubleton green ace over a green tripleton.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:43 am

jspectre wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:53 pm
Now, I simply disagree with your assessment that leading a tripleton club (and the low suit rather than the connected suit, at that) is a great lead if the dealer only has the JH. An ace lead (from a singleton/doubleton) is clearly the best in the scenario that the dealer may only have the right bower, and I would wager that leading the ace here will give your team more chances to score a point in the event that your partner is sitting on hearts.

You're welcome to put all the blame on W, and say that if only they played well, then it didn't matter what suit E led, but when playing with less inexperienced players it's the job of the more experienced player to make things as easy for their partner as humanly possible, and by making a questionable lead, if not an outright mistake, with a low club, the maker has now placed the less inexperienced player into a position where they can lose a winning hand, and some measure of fault must be attributed to the maker in this scenario. I would only have myself to blame if this club lead hurts my team, and the ace lead would have made the hand play out much simpler.

Now, if you simply don't care about the reality of playing with a weaker partner, feel free to disregard this.
I agree with you that leading the Ace is the best lead for S1. S1 needs to think about what's best for his team in this spot. When S1 leads the off ace it will either walk for a trick or force out enemy trump. Both are good results for his team. And those times S3 has a decent trump hand that may score a point, clearly an Ace lead is what's best for him as that lead allows S3 to discard garbage and almost always prevents him from being overtrumped and thus wasting a trump on the first lead. An Ace lead also signals to S1's partner that he is donating as he would never lead an off ace in that spot on a legit call. This information can also help S3 play his hand.

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