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Yep. Passing 3 trump from the dealer spot blocking only 1 out of 3 suits is very poor euchre. Nothing else needs to be said really. The only time one should consider passing 3 trump in this spot is if they have a euchre hand and even then it's still a debatable pass.Richardb02 wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:58 pm Three obvious weak plays:
1. R1S4 (Dealer) passed on 3 trump Lxx. Why? Next is blocked but no help in Reverse Next!?
Irishwolf talked about this in another thread. With the lead calling clubs may outperform a spade call. I think he's probably right. In any case, I think it's wrong to assume S1 made a bad call here. Without the lead, then I think a spade call beats out a club call.Richardb02 wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:58 pm2. R2S1 orders 2 trump clubs but the 3 trump spades LAK is much stronger. Yes, it worked on this particular hand but the probability favors the 3 trump order.
Actually S1 leading the KS on 2nd street WAS the correct lead. How could that be? On the first lead, S1 led trump and S3 played the Left. That means S3 is out of trump and thus S1 no longer has to worry about false-carding him. So on 2nd street S1 might as well lead the KS as this will sometimes trick the enemy into playing off. Of course in the actual hand S3 was NOT out of trump. S3 actually false-carded S1 on the first lead by playing the Left instead of the Ace of trump!Richardb02 wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:58 pm3. S1 Street 2 lead was a Ks. This "false cards" his partner, by not leading the As. It is a classic example of confusing your partner, instead of communicating valuable information to your partner. If S3 (Partner) was void in spades, he would waste one of his trumps.[/color]
I'm not even sure what I was arguing about on this hand, it's obviously a bad pass, I just hoped that I was gambling a 1 point call for the opponents in next for what would have been a euchre in hearts, and it backfired spectacularly. However, I am glad that we both agree that showing the left to your partner means you're void, not that you are also holding the ace. This is something you do to trick your opponents, right? So, don't trick your partner, and just play the ace, then let them play their hand with the knowledge the left is potentially still in play, and that you may even have it, whereas if you show the left, they should not assume you could also have the ace.Wes (aka the legend) wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:03 am Actually S1 leading the KS on 2nd street WAS the correct lead. How could that be? On the first lead, S1 led trump and S3 played the Left. That means S3 is out of trump and thus S1 no longer has to worry about false-carding him. So on 2nd street S1 might as well lead the KS as this will sometimes trick the enemy into playing off. Of course in the actual hand S3 was NOT out of trump. S3 actually false-carded S1 on the first lead by playing the Left instead of the Ace of trump!
Leading a king before the ace would be considered "bad play" no matter what the circumstances are.Wes (aka the legend) wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:03 am Actually S1 leading the KS on 2nd street WAS the correct lead. How could that be? On the first lead, S1 led trump and S3 played the Left. That means S3 is out of trump and thus S1 no longer has to worry about false-carding him.
Not when your P is out of trump. Think about it. In that scenario leading the King can only help your team.Dlan wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:13 pmLeading a king before the ace would be considered "bad play" no matter what the circumstances are.Wes (aka the legend) wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:03 am Actually S1 leading the KS on 2nd street WAS the correct lead. How could that be? On the first lead, S1 led trump and S3 played the Left. That means S3 is out of trump and thus S1 no longer has to worry about false-carding him.
Seriously? You can't fool your partner if they are out of trump. When your P is out of trump the only people you can fool is the enemy which is a good thing. This isn't a difficult concept.Dlan wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:09 pm Why yes, fooling your partner would fall under " not the most popular play "
I'm done here.
For a play such as playing the left and holding back the ace to work, one would need a partner open to the possibility that their partner also has the ace. Unfortunately, there is no clear way to commutate this. Playing the top card is the best we have.Richardb02 wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:03 pm Wes added to my summary, that Street 1 S3 false carded his partner, S1, by playing the Jc (indicating that he was out of trump) instead of the Ac (indicating that he may have the Jc. To me, I have been communicating in error! I will correct my error. GP, if I have 2 connected cards and partner is the maker, I will lead the lower of the 2 cards to communicate the possibility that I “may” have the higher card. This “revelation” is my take away from this post.
"Agreeing to disagree" actually doesn't apply here. The claims I am making itt are logical truths, as logically true as 2+2=4. They are not up for debate. When your P is out of trump, and you have an off AK, leading your King is better than leading your Ace. That statement is logically irrefutable. Even if every intelligent lifeform in the universe disagreed with that statement it wouldn't matter. It's still true, just like it doesn't matter if no one in the universe believes 2+2=4. It's still true regardless. That's how logical truths work. They're stubborn like that. Now if I make a claim based on my experience/expert intuition/observance of other strong players, that statement is inherently debatable. Now there is plenty of rational room to "agree to disagree".Richardb02 wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:03 pm Welcome back Wes! It was great talking to you a few days ago. You and I know that we can agree to disagree. That is a huge take away from this post, too! I appreciate your posts as well as every other strongly worded post.
When I play against randoms/amateurs, IOW like 99% of the time I play, I would have to lead the AS in this spot even after my P plays the Left on my Right bower lead. You can't trust the typical partner. Them playing the Left doesn't necessarily mean they are out of trump. Most people don't know how to be great partners. Like I've said before. They have other priorities in life, mastering euchre is not one of them, they're more rational than us in that senseRichardb02 wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:03 pm The Street 2 S1 Ks lead was also false carding your partner. Dlan was adamant that the false carding was an egregious error. Wes countered with an exception to the GP. Wes’ point makes sense but is beyond my pay grade. It was also based on S3 making the correct play. S3 failed. Personally, I am simplifying my play to Lead the Boss, which is clearly communicating to partner that As is the boss spade and S1 is not asking S3 to trump. Communicating clearly trumps world class thinking!
Yep. There are many spots where false-carding your P is the right play. And obviously I agree with the general principle "Don't false-card your P". But it's just like the general principle to not not trump your P's Ace. There are many exceptions to the rule. And if one wants to be really great they have to move beyond the general principles of this game and learn all those exceptions. They have to build up their library as you would say.irishwolf wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:08 pm My point is this, and the statement someone recently said, "don't ever try to trick your own partner!" I contend there are a number of situations to false card your partner.
Yeah, in complex games like euchre and poker anytime someone says or implies the word "never" they are usually setting themselves up. I've been guilty of that before, especially when I'm in a hurry, usually posting from my phone, and don't have time to elaborate. I can slip in the word "never" to keep things simple, and invariably someone will come after me and post an exception showing my "never" statement is wrong.Dlan wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 12:03 am I was wrong in stating “Leading a king before the ace would be considered "bad play" no matter what the circumstances are.”
As already pointed out, a hand where you need your partner to take a trick could be an exception.
Wes, your statement is true but your assumption was wrong!Wes (aka the legend) wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 3:00 am"Agreeing to disagree" actually doesn't apply here. The claims I am making itt are logical truths, as logically true as 2+2=4. They are not up for debate. When your P is out of trump, and you have an off AK, leading your King is better than leading your Ace. That statement is logically irrefutable. Even if every intelligent lifeform in the universe disagreed with that statement it wouldn't matter. It's still true, just like it doesn't matter if no one in the universe believes 2+2=4. It's still true regardless. That's how logical truths work. They're stubborn like that. Now if I make a claim based on my experience/expert intuition/observance of other strong players, that statement is inherently debatable. Now there is plenty of rational room to "agree to disagree".Richardb02 wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:03 pm Welcome back Wes! It was great talking to you a few days ago. You and I know that we can agree to disagree. That is a huge take away from this post, too! I appreciate your posts as well as every other strongly worded post.
I have already said that when I have an amateur partner I would lead the AS on that spot. But if you have an expert P, then when you lead the Right and they play the Left they will be out of trump every time becuz an expert P doesn't false-card their partner in that spot. They would never play the Left if they also had the Ace. IOW with an expert P, leading the KS is irrefutably correct in this spot becuz that expert P is out of trump. When I'm in an OE game I am going assume I play with experts whether it's true or not. I don't care if I'm wrong. I'm gonna hold you guys to that high standard.Richardb02 wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:36 am Wes, your statement is true but your assumption was wrong!
Your statement is, “When your P is out of trump, and you have an off AK, leading your King is better than leading your Ace.” No debate about that statement.
But your assumption that P is out of trump is not a truth. I am referring to OP S3, the hand in question. The Ac is still in the wild and could be in P’s hand. My statement is inherently true since 4+1<>7. 4 trump played plus 1 trump in S1’s hand does not account for 7 trumps. Your assumption that S3 playing the Left because he has no other trump is based on your analysis and convention, not the visible facts.
Now, as strongly as I disagree with your logic about how to play following a Left lead, instead of the Ac in trumps, I agree that playing the Ace, is the best way to communicate information to your partner. I do this despite Dylan’s statement, “Unfortunately, there is no clear way to communicate this. Playing the top card is the best that we have.” My logic is that if all S3 had was the Left, then he would have to play the Left. Leading the Ace communicates the possibility that S3 (Partner) has the Left. That is good and valuable communication. It is based on observable information as S3 sees it. The concept expands to leading the lower of 2 connected non-trump possible plays. There is zero value, in playing the higher of the 2 connected cards. So from a zero-based approach leading the lower card is better communication.
Wes’ analysis is based on “world class” play including OE games, is supported by my logic, but confuses the issue. The issue is that S3 holds both the Left and the Ace of trumps and which card communicates information more accurately. So I agree based on the Ace lead as communicating more information.
I appreciate Dylan’s statement. It simplifies the thought process, which is very important in real-game time and under real-game stress. As the OE “teacher” he is guiding players not to false-card your partner! He is simplifying the approach for the 99% of players who enjoy Euchre but want to forgo the additional analysis. It is a GP (General Principle) for casual players. Better players though will find the exception to GP’s.
Great discussion! We should be able to agree on that.
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Ya, that pretty much sums it up
When you or anyone in the OE game is my P, I am going to assume you are playing expertly and base my decisions off of that. If my decision ends up being wrong becuz my P does not play expertly, I truly don't care. It's just a game. It's not like we are playing for money. The cool thing tho is my approach to the OE game of always assuming my P plays expertly is a wonderful didactic tool. By doing this, more learning moments will be created and that's good for the forum. 99% of the time I play euchre I have to constantly adjust to and guess what my amateur P's are doing. It's exhausting and annoying. When I play the OE games, I get to take a break from that and assume the very best from my Ps. If they can't live up to my expectation, who cares. It's just a game anyways.
This interchange reminds me of that one thread where Irishwolf was right and you were wrong but you rudely dismissed him:
No you are not being baited. That's not how I operate. I put my heart and soul in this game. I come here to help players like you and others become better. Your rude dismissive responses add nothing to the discussion. Are we here to get better or are we here to turn this into the Jerry Springer show. Let's leave the ego and pettiness out and focus on improving. That's all I'm saying.Dlan wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:57 pm I think I’m being baited to respond on a personal level, but sorry, I’ll pass.
My claim on this spot is that IF S1s partner is an expert than leading the KS on trick 2 is unequivocally better than leading the AS. This is because when an expert S3 plays the Left on S1's Right bower lead he will always be out of trump. And crucially IF S1's P is out of trump then S1 can never false-card him BUT S1 can false-card the enemy and trick them into playing off which can win a trick S1's team otherwise wouldn't get which can be the difference between scoring a point and getting euchred.Dlan wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:57 pm Yes, it does seem like we disagree. IMO in this hand, leading a king before the ace is wrong. It serves no purpose other than confuse your partner. To do it just because you can and it will not affect the outcome is not a good enough reason. pass.
I'm not sure what you are talking about. S3 had Left-Ace in trump. When S1 leads the Right, an expert S3 will always play the Ace. To be clear, if S3 has Left-X, S3 will always play the lower card X when S1 leads the Right. Why? Because then those times S3 plays the Left he will be perfectly communicating to his P he is out of trump and this often critical information can help S1 better play his hand. There is no strong player on this planet who disagrees with that.Dlan wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:57 pm On to the left-king. And once again we disagree. As I said earlier, there is no good way to signal one has left/ace. Playing the left gives a partner more information, playing the Ace leaves open the question of do they only have the ace? Or maybe ace/king or maybe ace/left. Playing the left and you have only 2 possibilities. Bare left or left/ace. K.I.S.
You're speaking generally. I agree with the general truth to give your P the most accurate information possible. That doesn't change the fact that in this particular hand If S1 has an expert P, the KS is unequivocally the best lead. I encourage everyone to solve this simple logical puzzle and the other logic puzzles I've talked about itt.Dlan wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:57 pmAll though it didn’t work out in this hand, one may also be able to guess by the cards previously played.
Being a partnership game, it is best to your partner the most accurate information possible. Neither one of your proposed Strategies does this.
Wes, to me this is an interesting statement, because I genuinely feel as if playing euchre against other experts is easy, you know to a certain degree what experts are willing to call on, and aside from situations where you may try to bag a playable hand in order to bait S1 into calling next or try an uncharacteristic call, we're really all quite predictable. Compared to the almost complete unknown of dealing with amateurs, and trying to make the best plays for that unknown environment, playing against experts is a walk in the park. lolWes (aka the legend) wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 4:33 pmWhen you or anyone in the OE game is my P, I am going to assume you are playing expertly and base my decisions off of that. If my decision ends up being wrong becuz my P does not play expertly, I truly don't care. It's just a game. It's not like we are playing for money. The cool thing tho is my approach to the OE game of always assuming my P plays expertly is a wonderful didactic tool. By doing this, more learning moments will be created and that's good for the forum. 99% of the time I play euchre I have to constantly adjust to and guess what my amateur P's are doing. It's exhausting and annoying. When I play the OE games, I get to take a break from that and assume the very best from my Ps. If they can't live up to my expectation, who cares. It's just a game anyways.
Dlan, Dlan, I covered this in my last comment, but I wanted to quote you on this as well. If you're concerned with giving your partner the most accurate information possible, then your example of whether playing the ace leaves your partner in confusion as to whether you could have the K or the left, is simply mistaken. Just as showing the left with a left/ace combo is false carding, so to would be showing the ace if you also held an A/K combo. Showing your partner a higher trump, while keeping a lower trump, can only serve to trick your partner into believing you may now be void, these are the sort of plays you would make to try and potentially trick your opponents, so they shouldn't be done to your partner as well.Dlan wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:57 pm On to the left-king. And once again we disagree. As I said earlier, there is no good way to signal one has left/ace. Playing the left gives a partner more information, playing the Ace leaves open the question of do they only have the ace? Or maybe ace/king or maybe ace/left. Playing the left and you have only 2 possibilities. Bare left or left/ace. K.I.S.
If you and Edward didn't come in, clearing stating that S3 playing the Left out of a L-Ace combo on S1's Right bower lead is a bad play, I seriously would feel like I entered the Twilight Zone. I honestly still can't believe we're even discussion this. Excluding myself, there are 4 championship level players in my weekly tournament. If I played the Left before the the Ace in that spot, all of them would yell at me. Actually Edward wouldn't yell cuz I have never seen Edward mad in my life lol, but he'd say something. As you noted, expert players DO NOT like being deceived by their partner. They want it to be 100% certain that when their P plays the Left on their Right bower lead, their P is out of trump so they can adjust their strategy accordingly.irishwolf wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:40 am I KNOW I DO NOT WANT MY PARTNER, WHEN I MAKE TRUMP, FOOLING ME BY PLAYING THE HIGHER OF ANY DOUBLETON TRUMP COMBO. Play the lower one and sure and leave the question of the higher one unknown. In this hand, it is the most accurate information if the AC was played and it could have resulted in a Sweep if eldest leads QD on trick 4. Many games are won/lost by 1 point so it could have been a game changer as well.
Different if on Defense, fool the opponents.
Further, if you took a poll of higher skilled players I would lay odds they will agree, "player the lower trump card" and it gives better information. I think if I searched the old text on advise this would be covered??
And since this is a website to teach euchre, this issue should be left in question.
IRISHWOLF
I agree. The game is completely different when you have an expert P. 99% of the time I play euchre it's essentially 1 vs 3. It's very mentally taxing. But when I have a great P, then the game is like "a walk in the park". Now we're speaking the same language. Everything's simplified. So many things you had to worry about before you no loner have to worry about. It's a much easier game.jspectre wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:05 pm Wes, to me this is an interesting statement, because I genuinely feel as if playing euchre against other experts is easy, you know to a certain degree what experts are willing to call on, and aside from situations where you may try to bag a playable hand in order to bait S1 into calling next or try an uncharacteristic call, we're really all quite predictable. Compared to the almost complete unknown of dealing with amateurs, and trying to make the best plays for that unknown environment, playing against experts is a walk in the park. lol
Yep exactly.jspectre wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:08 pm Dlan, I covered this in my last comment, but I wanted to quote you on this as well. If you're concerned with giving your partner the most accurate information possible, then your example of whether playing the ace leaves your partner in confusion as to whether you could have the K or the left, is simply mistaken. Just as showing the left with a left/ace combo is false carding, so to would be showing the ace if you also held an A/K combo. Showing your partner a higher trump, while keeping a lower trump, can only serve to trick your partner into believing you may now be void, these are the sort of plays you would make to try and potentially trick your opponents, so they shouldn't be done to your partner as well.
Perfect. I no longer feel like I'm in the Twilight Zonejspectre wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:55 pm Also, I want to add that even while I was still an amateur, I understood that showing the left if you have left/ace is simply a bad play if your team are the maker's. When your partner only has the left bower, he will have to play it to your right lead, but if he has another trump, then he can play under instead, and save the highest remaining trump left in play. If you think that it doesn't matter which trump you show, because either one is now the highest left in play, this is a false assumption. That perspective only exists from your solitary view of the hand, this does not hold true from your partner's perspective.
The left still carries a greater value than the ace, and that is why showing the left to your partner on their right bower lead is a universal single that you are void in trump, for the same reason that you slog the left on your opponents call/right bower lead if you're also holding the ace. Showing your partner the left, so that they know it's out of play doesn't help at all, because the ace is still missing, all you have done is make them think you are now void of trump, and slogging the left when you hold a trump lower than the ace to show your partner where the left is doesn't make any sense, because now the opponents could be left with the ace, this is amateur logic.
The idea that showing an ace could mean your partner either has the king or the left is also false, it's the same exact situation. If you hold the A/K then you need to show your partner the K for the same reason you show the ace if you hold the left. If you show the ace and your partner does not have the K, then he should assume you are void or have the left. Plus, you simply can't have your partner throwing away the left to keep the ace, this means you have to wonder every time that your partner shows the left whether or not he is void, compared to this being a universal signal that he is void in trump, and there is no downside to not showing your partner the left.
Precisely. I actually hadn't really thought about this until now, it has just been common sense for me to always show the lower of my connected trump suits to my partner, based on the same principle of showing the ace in a left/ace combo, but I didn't quite understand the importance of this with smaller trumps. By showing the lower of my connected pair, now my partner can assume that it is impossible for me to also hold the next lower suit.Wes (aka the legend) wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:17 pm If you and Edward didn't come in, clearing stating that S3 playing the Left out of a L-Ace combo on S1's Right bower lead is a bad play, I seriously would feel like I entered the Twilight Zone. I honestly still can't believe we're even discussion this. Excluding myself, there are 4 championship level players in my weekly tournament. If I played the Left before the the Ace in that spot, all of them would yell at me. Actually Edward wouldn't yell cuz I have never seen Edward mad in my life lol, but he'd say something. As you noted, expert players DO NOT like being deceived by their partner. They want it to be 100% certain that when their P plays the Left on their Right bower lead, their P is out of trump so they can adjust their strategy accordingly.
Dlan wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:23 pm Unlike leading a king before the ace, playing the left from a left/ace trump set is not something that I just made up. I had seen it used others use it and as I said, it takes a partner that understands the concept.
No matter if you play the ace or the left, it’s now up to the maker to try and figure out what, if any trump you still have. That is no easy task, especially on the first lead as above. Playing the left shows where that card is. That is something most players want to know.
To quote from the above post by Irishwolf
" Give all the information possible to your partner by your play;. . ."
I believe this method those that.
It is also consistent with how other connecting sets are played on your partner lead. Knowing where the boss cards are makes it easier for the maker to control the hand.
False carding would be where one leads the lower card from a connecting set. Here you are responding to your partner's lead. They are two different things.
Now I do agree that this is should not be done on an opponent’s play.
irishwolf wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:45 amNO THE END RESULT IS NOT THE SAME - LOOK AT WHAT THIS HAND CAUSED S1 TO DO AND THEY FAILED TO GET A SWEEP BECAUSE S3 FALSE CARDED HIS PARTNER!