I wanted to get some opinions from the OE group on a few (or 10) questions/scenarios.

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jspectre
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I wanted to get some opinions from the OE group on a few (or 10) questions/scenarios.

Unread post by jspectre » Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:29 pm

I would consider myself a solid player, but there's quite a few situations where I feel like I don't know the most optimal play or if there is always one, so I wanted to get some input from people with more experience than I have. I'll make a short list of some of the concepts I have in mind. All of the following scenarios assume that the other participants are skilled players.

1. What is the "best" non-trump card to lead from S1R1? Does it depend on your opponents or just what's in your hand?

For example, do you always go for the singleton green ace, then the ace in next or doubleton green ace, and then K high doubles? Are there times where you lead a low double suit or a low next card (or low doubles in next) in the hopes of hitting your partner's void or even potentially making one of their aces good? Should you always try to lead next if the opponent always discards green or vice versa? I'm probably just overthinking this one.

2. The (Card_Q-D) was turned down by the dealer, you sit in 2nd seat and hold (Card_J-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_A-S) (Card_K-S) (Card_Q-H). Do you ever call clubs instead of spades?

Now, I always call spades here, since 3 trump, with 2/3 being the highest, clearly seems better on paper than right+loser and a doubleton next ace, even if it is AK. However, there's certainly times where it feels like calling clubs here may have helped me control the hand better, so I'm wondering if it's perhaps closer than I previously thought.

3. What is the minimum holding required to lead trump against S2's order? Do you still lead trump if a jack was ordered, and under what circumstances? Also, do you ever lead trump from 1st seat, and under what conditions?

I lead trump with 1 trump+2 aces, 3 trump, or 2 trump+1 ace, but it can potentially be such a devastating move, so I do wonder if it could be correct to try leading trump with only 1 trump+1 ace or two trump and no voids. Conversely, do you ever play under as S2, because it feels like you always have to use the right, even on a low trump, for fear of being overtrumped by an unguarded left from S3. However, some hands are good enough that you would risk leading trump even while having the left protected. I'm talking about when you hold something like JK with no aces, and you ordered the A into the dealer's hand.

4. The dealer often has suited doubles, either Q or K high. When they trump the first trick, and then lead a low off suit and you hold a doubleton ace in that suit, do you ever try and play the lower suit (but still higher than the dealer) in the hopes of winning both tricks? Would you lead it back immediately? Is this play only feasible if it happens after a round of trump has been led?

I can't tell if this one is a sound strategy or just wishful thinking, it has definitely backfired and gotten me beat out by 3rd seat's K when I tried to play the Q in my AQ pair on a 9 or 10. However, there's also more times than I can count where I have suited doubles as the dealer, and it feels pretty great when it does work.

5. I simply pass in S1 if I block all suits, with no prospects for a good call, but when is the right time to call reverse next if you have no blocks in next?

It's generally a good pass even if you only have reverse next blocked, but if you can make a call in reverse next, then you could easily be letting 3rd seat call next, I have been in this scenario many times on both sides of the table. What is your minimum hand requirement to call reverse next here? I call if I have left+ace+loser and two trash cards or right+ace/K and an off suit ace, but do you ever try to call something like AQ10 with no off suit ace or do you still call right+Q/10 with only one ace? Also, would you immediately lead trump with either the left/ace pair or the right/ace or would you play it safer and lead off or the ace (respectively)? Would you lead the left or the ace, seeing as it's more likely that the opponents hold the other bower(?).

6. What is your minimum hand requirement for ordering up your partner?

I guess I'm mainly wondering if you guys call on two non-bower trump and an off suit (green) ace or if your minimum is right+1 or left+1+ace, and secondly, does it have to be a green ace (in either scenario) or can it be an ace in next? It feels bad to call with left+1+ace if I have JA in next, but can I pass this if I have all suits blocked or still have a 2nd round call? If I have no 2nd round call, then I believe it has to be a call, it's just not one I like making. Also, since it was a topic of discussion the other day, I'm only ordering up a jack with 3 trump, and preferably not Q/10/9, but I would consider ordering with a very strong holding such as left+loser and 2 green aces or left+A/K and a green ace.

7. When calling next, what is the "correct" card to lead? Based on the following scenarios.

If you hold right+loser and and AK in next do u simply lead the right and hope the AK is enough to draw out all remaining trump? Do you still lead the right with only ace? Your p could very well only be holding the left, and you may lead back into your opponents, who now hold the boss cards in trump. However, it's also possible the left is buried, and that leading low can lose the first round of trump if your opponents hold the ace, which seems to happen too often for my liking. Similarly, if you hold something like left+Q+10 would you still lead low (or perhaps an off suit?) or do you go high, hoping to avoid any scenario where the right is buried, and if your p only has the right, you hope the remaining trump is still enough to finish the job.

8. When defending against a loner from 1st seat, is there always a "best" card to lead, based on your hand?

For example, I agree that there's other scenarios to lead an ace, besides having two of them, such as having a K9 pair of green suited doubles, but I don't necessarily agree with leading an ace to keep a pair of lower doubles, that could only potentially stop something like A10, when your partner can potentially trump an ace because they are void in that suit. Keeping low doubles in next is particularly egregious, because that wastes the potential to trump a singleton ace, and I wonder if it would even be correct to hold K9 doubles in next, because even if the maker has an AQ pair in next, the odds are still good that your partner can trump it, and I would estimate the odds it's a singleton ace in next are more likely. If my hand is weaker, then I try to always lead next, unless I need to lead something like a green K or Q, in addition to another green ace (or K). Also, you would always lead high if you did choose to lead a doubleton pair.

9. When defending against a loner from a 3rd seat call, and you sit in 2nd seat, is it really always correct to lead next or does it depend on your hand and the card that was picked up?

It's one thing if an A or K is ordered up, but if it's just a 9/10/Q then it's more likely that your partner will be shut out, even if you hit their void, unless the dealer holds cards in next. I would also never throw away an ace in next as the dealer if a low trump card was ordered, I would make another void. As the player in 2nd seat I will only lead next if it's appropriate, which means a high card was ordered, and it's the right lead based on my hand. However, unless I have doubles in next, then I'm going to lead a tripleton green suit if I have it, there's a good chance the maker could hold an ace in this suit, and my p could potentially be void in this suit, because sometimes you just have doubles in next.

10. What is the minimum hand one should have to attempt a loner, and do you go for loners with a low off suit card or is it better to play for 2, what card decides the difference?

I have started going for loners with holdings like JKQASKC, while I needed to have a doubleton ace here previously, but this hand rarely gets euchred, and I would attempt a loner with all trump and just a K, so why not here as well? I'm undecided on trying this with a Q instead of a K. I have also started going alone with something like JK10/K9, as again I only need an ace to be buried, and it rarely gets euchred. However, I do think something like a Q high doubleton is asking too much, and I have been avoiding 4 trump hands with a 9/10 green off suit, although the circumstances aren't that rare for your opponents to end up holding the same suit, if next is led and both green suits haven't been ruled out yet. I go alone with anything Q or above, but I'm less sure about a green J or a 10 in next. Also, do you attempt loners with 3 trump left+ace+loser hands with a doubleton ace, does it depend on the doubleton suit, and do you lead trump after trumping the first trick or would you try to sneak the off suit ace through? Loners from 1st seat are a whole different ball game, and allow for many different scenarios.

Sorry for the essay, that's twice as many questions as I originally had. Thanks in advance for any responses.
Last edited by jspectre on Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.



irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:45 pm

JSPECTRE, those are great question you raise. Not simple answers to most, quite complex and actually IMO, that may have more than one option depending on the situation, opponents, your partner, etc.

One thing this old timer, very good euchre player, told me. Sometimes I play it this way and other times that way. That might not be of much help, but suggests it is situational advice.

I guess since this could be of use to other readers having the same question that each should be addressed in separate NEW Topics. So for question one,

1. What is the "best" non-trump card to lead? Does it depend on your opponents or just what's in your hand?

For example, do you always go for the singleton green ace, then the ace in next or doubleton green ace, and then K high doubles? Are there times where you lead a low double suit or a low next card (or low doubles in next) in the hopes of hitting your partner's void or even potentially making one of their aces good? Should you always try to lead next if the opponent always discards green or vice versa? I'm probably just overthinking this one.

YOU DID NOT SPECIFY WHO ORDERED? (it matters) I will assume the Dealer here, you at S1. My answer to that is what else is in your hand? Do you have any chance yourself of euchring the opponent?

If you have a Green ace (singleton or doubleton) and a queen or king doubleton, with one or no trumps. I would lead the Ace. WHY? Your best help to your partner is to allow him to sort his hand, slough junk and you save your doubleton to catch the Dealer doubleton.

If I have Left guarded with that ace off suit, I am NOT leading my ace. I am looking for my invented term and ploy, THE COUNTER PUNCH!

in general, lead a singleton unless you have two off suit doubletons, then lead the one with cards in sequence (like Q/K, or J/Q.

That is my short answer as there are many possibilities. It more important, IMO of what is in your hand as to what to lead.

IRISHWOLF

RedDuke
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Unread post by RedDuke » Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:31 pm

1. What is the "best" non-trump card to lead? Does it depend on your opponents or just what's in your hand?
I'm assuming that you're S1 and this is the first trick in that hand.

Who ordered? If it was your partner, you should lead a trump if you have one. If S3 ordered (especially in R1) then if he doesn't have a bower he's a total moron. Unless your partner is a total idiot, he won't make an S3 order without a way to take control of the hand and that means he's probably got at least one of the bowers and an ace or two. You want to lead trump since you know that the dealer almost certainly has two so you want to strip the opponents.

If the opponents ordered, I'll usually lead a singleton green ace if I've got one. That's the least likely thing to get trumped.

If it's second round, things get a bit tricky. If the opponents are doing a reverse next call but my only singleton green ace is in the suit that was turned down then I won't lead it. We know for sure that there are at most only four of those cards in the other players' hands and since the opponents turned it down then odds are that one of them have a void in that suit and will trump my ace.

If the opponents call but I'm holding something like three trump and a side ace then I'll frequently lead trump, figuring that I may have more trump than the opponents do so I'm looking to strip them then use my excess trump and the ace for a euchre.

5. I simply pass in S1 if I block all suits, with no prospects for a good call, but when is the right time to call reverse next if you have no blocks in next?

As you correctly point out, with a reverse next call, you can't usually rely on your partner. I generally won't try this unless I've got something that's pretty much two guaranteed tricks with a good shot at getting three. Something like three trump (one of which is a bower) and a side ace, for example. Odds are that your partner does not have a bower in reverse next. AQ10 is too week but something like AKQ plus a side ace might make me try it.

6. What is your minimum hand requirement for ordering up your partner?

It depends on the score and my partner. If I'm partners with Wes, Lefty, etc. then I'll typically pass unless I'm holding three trump or if I'm holding something like Right+Ace. This is because I know that those guys are going to pick up themselves if they have anything at all. Another reason not to order up is that I know that they're guys that can be relied on to try loners on decent hands and I don't want to rob them of that chance.

The average euchre player does not order up nearly enough. They most certainly do not try loners like they should. If I've got one of them as a partner, I'm going to be more inclined to order up on any hand where I've got a decent chance of getting at least two tricks. I don't want my timid partner to pass and have S1 call and make a point.

7. When calling next, what is the "correct" card to lead? Based on the following scenarios.

I'm not sure I understand your scenario. If Spades is the suit that gets turned down and I'm holding something like AKJ of clubs, I'm calling clubs and going alone! I'll lead right through the three clubs and hope that I both strip the opponents of all their trumps and they throw off the wrong cards so that they can't stop my losers on the final trick or two.

Normally when someone says "calling next," they don't have a whole lot of power in next but hope that their partner does.

8. When defending against a loner from 1st seat, is there always a "best" card to lead, based on your hand?

You generally do not want to lead an ace unless you have more than one. The problem with leading your only ace is that your partner may have two and they'll have to throw away one on the fourth trick. If they throw away the wrong one, you're screwed.

The best thing to lead is usually a low card in a green suit. You want your partner to take it with an ace or the dealer to trump it. This way your side saves as many aces as you can for the fifth trick when hopefully it's something like two aces against whatever the dealer's non-trump card is and hopefully one of them will stop it.

9. When defending against a loner from a 3rd seat call, and you sit in 2nd seat, is it really always correct to lead next or does it depend on your hand and the card that was picked up?

Yes. Your partner is going to be the dealer, so they pick up the turn card and discard next. They are almost certain to have at least two trump cards. This is mathematically proven. Out of several thousand games of euchre, I've only had one trump when ordered up as the dealer once or twice. You lead next, the lone player in S3 trumps it, then the dealer overtrumps or throws off depending on what S3 threw. Most of the time, the S3 player will not use a big trump because they need to save their big trump to strip you.

10. What is the minimum hand one should have to attempt a loner, and do you go for loners with a low off suit card or is it better to play for 2, what card decides the difference?

This depends on the score. I'm more inclined to try risky loners if I need a lot of points to even the score.

I've tried loners with things like Right+Ace and two green aces. I've seen players try loners with something like KQ109 and a side ace before (this one will generally work unless one opponent has JJA).

justme
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Unread post by justme » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:24 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:31 pm
1. What is the "best" non-trump card to lead? Does it depend on your opponents or just what's in your hand?
I'm assuming that you're S1 and this is the first trick in that hand.

Who ordered? If it was your partner, you should lead a trump if you have one. If S3 ordered (especially in R1) then if he doesn't have a bower he's a total moron.
From seat 3 I make trump all the time holding AKQT of trump + off Ace and sometimes I even go alone. (note no bower, R1 or 2) And I'm no total moron. I might even name trump with AKQ9 of trump + off Ace.

jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:46 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:45 pm
JSPECTRE, those are great question you raise. Not simple answers to most, quite complex and actually IMO, that may have more than one option depending on the situation, opponents, your partner, etc.

One thing this old timer, very good euchre player, told me. Sometimes I play it this way and other times that way. That might not be of much help, but suggests it is situational advice.

I guess since this could be of use to other readers having the same question that each should be addressed in separate NEW Topics. So for question one,

1. What is the "best" non-trump card to lead? Does it depend on your opponents or just what's in your hand?

For example, do you always go for the singleton green ace, then the ace in next or doubleton green ace, and then K high doubles? Are there times where you lead a low double suit or a low next card (or low doubles in next) in the hopes of hitting your partner's void or even potentially making one of their aces good? Should you always try to lead next if the opponent always discards green or vice versa? I'm probably just overthinking this one.

YOU DID NOT SPECIFY WHO ORDERED? (it matters) I will assume the Dealer here, you at S1. My answer to that is what else is in your hand? Do you have any chance yourself of euchring the opponent?

If you have a Green ace (singleton or doubleton) and a queen or king doubleton, with one or no trumps. I would lead the Ace. WHY? Your best help to your partner is to allow him to sort his hand, slough junk and you save your doubleton to catch the Dealer doubleton.

If I have Left guarded with that ace off suit, I am NOT leading my ace. I am looking for my invented term and ploy, THE COUNTER PUNCH!

in general, lead a singleton unless you have two off suit doubletons, then lead the one with cards in sequence (like Q/K, or J/Q.

That is my short answer as there are many possibilities. It more important, IMO of what is in your hand as to what to lead.

IRISHWOLF
That is interesting advice (from the old timer) because I'm always looking for the most optimal move in any given situation, but you do have to adjust your play depending on your opponents, and you don't want to be too predictable.

Yes, I did forget to specify who ordered, that somehow slipped my mind. I was talking about leading from S1R1 on dealer pickup, so your assumption is correct. Your example with a guarded left is interesting to me. I actually never considered not leading a singleton ace when I have a better hand, as opposed to a worse one. Your logic is that since you already have a stopper, instead of leading your ace, try to hit your partner's void and catch the dealer's ace.

You may even lead to your partner's ace, and the dealer may not be void in that suit. However, the chance to hit your partner's ace as a backup is significantly limited the longer the suit you lead. If the cards are arranged just right this could work out, but it could also easily get stopped by 2nd seat, and the dealer may then be able to void himself in the suit of your singleton. I feel like the math is probably still on the side of leading the singleton, but it's certainly something to think about.

jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:03 am

@RedDuke

My mistake, I meant to specify S1R1. I agree that a singleton ace is most likely the objectively best lead, while a singleton next ace is likely better than a doubleton green ace, as next is least often discarded. I suppose my interest leans more towards hands where I have no singleton ace, but upon further reflection, I believe this mainly depends on what the dealer frequently discards. However, Irish brought up an interesting point, that if he has a hand that is guaranteed a trick or very likely to take one, then he will lead another suit besides his ace, in an attempt to hit his partner's void or to throw a potential wrench in the dealer's plans.

5. Personally, that sounds like overkill, 3 trump including the right and a side ace, is basically a loner, depending on that last card. I just know that it isn't that uncommon for the card distribution to occur in such a way that the opponents can't make a call or that they have better strength in next, and that calling with even something like JK and a side ace can get you an easy point. However, I agree that under most circumstances the opposing team turns black because they have red, but this is less likely the better your cards are in reverse next.

6. I think that can work both ways. You don't want to call because they're good players who know when to pick up, and you could potentially ruin a loner, but unless they're picking up on some marginal hands, there's easily times where you could be leaving points on the table. A lot of the time you can make a point in the turned suit, even if the opponents would have called next. However, if I play with a partner that calls on K10 and a green ace, then I'm going to pass every time on marginal two trump hands, unless I'm donating, because I know it's practically suicide. Granted, it probably shouldn't be 2nd seat making this call, he could ruin a potential loner, I think that ideally the dealer's calling range needs to be certain 2 trump hands.

7. I'm talking about whether or not there's a mostly clear cut answer on what to lead on a next call, where you don't have something ridiculous like JAK. Leading a low trump (instead of the right) and expecting to hit your partner's left is reasonable, but it just doesn't always pan out that way, the left can be buried or the opponents may even have it. Now, I don't think you should lead the right if there's an opportunity to be euchred if you take your partner's sole left bower, and you now have a 9 of trump a green ace and two low off suits. I sometimes just lead the singleton ace if I don't want to pick which trump card to lead. If I have no ace then I simply lead off in a single or doubleton, so that's an easier decision.

8. Yes, I understand the reasoning behind not leading an ace unless you have two, but that absolutely should count for K9 doubles as well. These can stop AQ combinations, and like an ace, you need to know whether you're keeping these until the last card. So, you have to lead your ace to rule that out, because if you lead another suit, then you have to be the one to guess between the ace and the doubles. You can't lead your doubles instead of the ace, because whether you lead high or low the dealer can play over you and still retain the boss card. If you do lead doubles then you're hoping for your partner to have a void and be able to trump the maker's ace. I don't agree with leading a single low green card, though, you want to give yourself the best chance to steal a loner, and good players can read the cards and understand what to keep.

9. First off, I have had a single trump ordered into my hand many times, but I suppose that depends on whether the maker is calling on 3 or 4 trump. In general I agree that one should discard next if appropriate, and your partner should lead next if appropriate, but it isn't always a sure thing, and may depend on the face up card, and what your partner holds in their hand. If the up card is a low suit, and my hand in 2nd seat dictates a different lead, then I will not automatically lead next. The dealer may have doubles in next or they may not have discarded their ace in next if they have no chance of trumping over the maker. Plus, you need to consider whether the maker will attempt a loner if he holds off suit cards in next, especially if he holds something like AQ.

10. I agree, if the score calls for a loner, then sometimes you just have to will one to happen. I was more talking about at neutral scores, I want to know what people think are clear cut loner calls, since I have only somewhat recently started doing less conservative calls, and realistically, anything with a decent chance to score, with a fairly low euchre rate, should be a loner attempt. I suppose it's also worth considering how often you would make the loner versus how often you would have made a march with your partner, that's probably the deciding factor.

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:46 am

My answer to #2 & #3:

2. The (Card_Q-D) was turned down by the dealer, you sit in 2nd seat and hold (Card_J-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_A-S) (Card_K-S) (Card_Q-H). Do you ever call clubs instead of spades?

Now, I always call spades here, since 3 trump, with 2/3 being the highest, clearly seems better on paper than right+loser and a doubleton next ace, even if it is AK. However, there's certainly times where it feels like calling clubs here may have helped me control the hand better, so I'm wondering if it's perhaps closer than I previously thought.
When you cross-suit (the term is not Reverse Next, lol not in any euchre book going back to Meehan 1862) at S1 be prepared to take three tricks to make your point. Only if I know with high confidence that opponents are bagging will I cross-suit. The proper call is Next. With the hand stated you have only two tricks in either clubs or spades. But to me, clubs is a better call than spades, spades you have 2 tricks and clubs about 2.25 to 2.50 is my ratilng. Unless i smell 'bagging', I am passing here. IRISHWOLF

3. What is the minimum holding required to lead trump against S2's order? Do you still lead trump if a jack was ordered, and under what circumstances? Also, do you ever lead trump from 1st seat, and under what conditions?

There is no 'minimum holding' here, IMO. Reason is that it all depends on S2 tendencies to call thin and what is the upcard. I would NEVER lead trump with Jack up unless S2 for foolish reasons thinks that is his card (some do). But to me the best advice is leading trump through when you hold 2 trumps with an ace. If you know S2 orders thin then holding even one trump may be a good ploy. Just to iffy due to S2 style of play. IRISHWOLF

I lead trump with 1 trump+2 aces, 3 trump, or 2 trump+1 ace, but it can potentially be such a devastating move, so I do wonder if it could be correct to try leading trump with only 1 trump+1 ace or two trump and no voids. Conversely, do you ever play under as S2, because it feels like you always have to use the right, even on a low trump, for fear of being overtrumped by an unguarded left from S3. However, some hands are good enough that you would risk leading trump even while having the left protected. I'm talking about when you hold something like JK with no aces, and you ordered the A into the dealer's hand.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:30 am

After reading all those questions, they good questions, but I will stop with my answers. Reason is all those questions have already been answered in various Posts on hands and situations. And you will not get a consensus because of all the various holdings and styles of play. The old saying applies, IMO, IT ALL DEPENDS!

IRISHWOLF

jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:58 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:30 am
After reading all those questions, they good questions, but I will stop with my answers. Reason is all those questions have already been answered in various Posts on hands and situations. And you will not get a consensus because of all the various holdings and styles of play. The old saying applies, IMO, IT ALL DEPENDS!

IRISHWOLF
Well, I know enough from my time here that I won't get anything close to a consensus, I more or less wanted to just get some different opinions to see how much good players vary on these subjects. For example, I find it very interesting that you say the proper call in question 2 is still next or just passing, because I can easily see my partner holding diamonds (but too weak to call from 3rd) and the opponents preferring to play in next rather than the turned down suit, but while also not having stellar options to choose from in black.

I'll admit that crossing the river has risks with this hand, but I don't need much help from my partner to secure the point, and I would prefer not to give S2 the option of a next call or potentially even a loner. I'm also intrigued that you would call clubs here, because I did wonder if it was closer than I previously thought. Do you lead the right and try to lead the AK or do you lead the heart here and hope the hand plays out in your favor? Calling spades and leading trump is either counting on your p for an ace or 2 trump, and if they only have a single trump, unless the right is buried, you're euchred.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:17 pm

Got to lead trump! JC in clubs and same in spades. If clubs then the AS followed by KS. If you call spades, I estimate your euchre rate will be about 30 - 35%. In clubs, about 24 - 28%.

Why is clubs a better call? Because you have ace with a void that is not so if spades is called. Looks are deceiving here. With clubs, you can always duck and trust your partner for AD or AH. It would be a low probability that one opponent has 3 trumps to come back and get your 9C (and that is why you have to keep leading spades and not the heart). If you lead the JC and your partner has no clubs, generally one is it, you can consider a 2nd lead with the 9C and hope your partner has AH or AD. Two trumps split between two opponents is only about 11% probability. One having 3 clubs is about 9-10%.

You cannot count on your partner having 2 spades or 2 clubs (based on what), possible, but not probable. One is it and that is gone with your lead. Only help will be with Red. The situation is score dependent and a lot depends on your partner for Next. You say, partner too weak to call next? Shouldn't be somebody has to loaded in diamonds, and that will be S3 (exactly why you cannot count on your partner)! S2 is going to timid on calling Next. IMO I think spades is a terrible call as you do not have the Right, and two loser off suits.

IRISHWOLF

"Do you lead the right and try to lead the AK or do you lead the heart here and hope the hand plays out in your favor? Calling spades and leading trump is either counting on your p for an ace or 2 trump, and if they only have a single trump, unless the right is buried, you're euchred"

jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:52 pm

Sorry Irish, I might be confusing you here. There's two different questions being associated with that same hand now. The original question was that your partner turned down the QD, and you're deciding to cross the river in either clubs or spades, and the other scenario was about when to cross the river in 1st seat, and we have adopted the same hand for question 2 in this scenario, with an (originally) unnamed card being turned down by the dealer, but we can say it's the same QD. I do understand your reasoning for picking clubs when in 1st seat and you can lead the right followed by an AK pair, but is clubs still the definite pick if you're calling from seat 2, and you play second?

irishwolf
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:17 am

You are correct, I answered #2 for S1R2.

Now for S2R2, I think it is pretty much a toss up. Reason is you are making trump here as much for the Dealer, your partner, as you are for yourself. And you can count on him for 2 trumps in clubs, but 2 in spades is a stretch. If diamonds is led (clubs trump), trump with 9C and lead the JC.

Spades is an okay order as well. But if diamonds is led, I am going to ditch my heart to create a void.

But to add to this, suppose S2 passes and Pone has this hand. Now what would Pone do, STD?

IRISHWOLF

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