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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:07 pm
Unread post by jspectre » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:40 pm
Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:04 am
I like the call. Given that you block no 2nd rd suits and only have 1 small card in Next, I think this call will be slightly better than passing. Calling is a losing play but I think passing will be slightly bigger loser. That said, I still have to test this exact configuration to know for sure if it is a call. Either way, one of the drawbacks to these thin calls is you do need your partner to play the hand well and IMO S2 played this hand badly.
Burning the Left on a green lead is the wrong play. If S2 is gonna trump in, gotta trump low-send high in that spot with L+1. S2 needs to think about S4's range in this spot. S4 just called so his hand aint gonna be that great. S4 is gonna have a lot of R+1 type hands in his range. When S2 trumps low and sends the Left, his team gets a point every time his P has R+1 which is huge, but when S2 trumps in with the Left and sends low his team is now not guaranteed a point when S4 has R+1. These little things matter. But all that said, IMO S2 should not be trumping in AT ALL.
With L+1, I.E. a guaranteed trick and the opportunity to create a void on trick 1, S2 should NOT be trumping in IMO. The best play IS to get rid of the KS. Unfortunately I can't prove that, but that's what I believe, especially when you have an aggressive P. So overall I don't like the way S2 played the hand at all. IMO he was not being a good partner in this hand. He was thinking about his own holding and not what was best for his team. And in euchre it's never really about your hand, it's about the team the team the team.jspectre wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:40 pmthe only winning play would be to play off here with the Ks and keep your protected left intact, plus your partner can always have the Ad and win the trick. I'm not saying that's the right play, but it's the one I would make if I'm playing with a partner who doesn't only call Right+2 trump, and may be making marginal calls.
I always lead the Ace in that spot also. IMO that's just a bad lead by S1. If you play in our game more often, you'll see a lot of bad leads from that spot.
Unread post by jspectre » Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:30 pm
I figured you would agree, I like trying to squeeze out these calls, because passing just feels worse, but I'm not sure at all that this is the correct play, so I look forward to your analysis on this one.Wes (aka the legend) wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:04 amI like the call. Given that you block no 2nd rd suits and only have 1 small card in Next, I think this call will be slightly better than passing. Calling is a losing play but I think passing will be slightly bigger loser. That said, I still have to test this exact configuration to know for sure if it is a call. Either way, one of the drawbacks to these thin calls is you do need your partner to play the hand well and IMO S2 played this hand badly.
Yeah, the way my partner played the first trick didn't make any sense to me, it seemed like a complete overreaction to a low green lead. Even on an ace in next lead, where I have no other voids, and have no off suit aces, I'm still trumping low, and trying to get the left lead to my partner, because anything else just feels like playing too timid.Wes (aka the legend) wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:04 amBurning the Left on a green lead is the wrong play. If S2 is gonna trump in, gotta trump low-send high in that spot with L+1. S2 needs to think about S4's range in this spot. S4 just called so his hand aint gonna be that great. S4 is gonna have a lot of R+1 type hands in his range. When S2 trumps low and sends the Left, his team gets a point every time his P has R+1 which is huge, but when S2 trumps in with the Left and sends low his team is now not guaranteed a point when S4 has R+1. These little things matter. But all that said, IMO S2 should not be trumping in AT ALL.
I'm glad we're on the same page here, playing off feels like the absolute best play to me in this situation, but I don't have the same amount of experience when it comes to playing euchre at a very high level. However, there's very few downsides to playing off, your left remains protected, you created a void in spades, and with a 10d lead there's no chance 1st seat is trying to sneak one past you.Wes (aka the legend) wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:04 amWith L+1, I.E. a guaranteed trick and the opportunity to create a void on trick 1, S2 should NOT be trumping in IMO. The best play IS to get rid of the KS. Unfortunately I can't prove that, but that's what I believe, especially when you have an aggressive P. So overall I don't like the way S2 played the hand at all. IMO he was not being a good partner in this hand. He was thinking about his own holding and not what was best for his team. And in euchre it's never really about your hand, it's about the team the team the team.
Yeah, that's just the perfect lead there when you're holding JK in trump, you either catch the dealer or force him to use trump, you would absolutely hate to see 2nd seat win the trick in diamonds, and the maker throws off his only heart. Ironically, if they had correctly led the ace of hearts here, we would have made a point! I guess that's euchre for you.Wes (aka the legend) wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:04 amI always lead the Ace in that spot also. IMO that's just a bad lead by S1. If you play in our game more often, you'll see a lot of bad leads from that spot.
Unread post by Tbolt65 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:49 pm
Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:09 pm
Yea I strongly disagree. The default play should never be to trump high send low with L+1 on a garbage green lead. That's just bad play imo.Tbolt65 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:49 pmI made this play based on limited information. It's still the right play based on said limited information until a hand like this proves your limited observations wrong and then you have to adjust accordingly to your partners play calling range.
Tbolt65
Edward
Unread post by jspectre » Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:16 pm
At the very least, I think we should be able to agree that trumping with the left, and then leading a low trump back, on a green 10d lead, is simply not correct. I wouldn't fault you for trumping low and leading the left, even if it led to our euchre, because that's still a fairly reasonable play, even if throwing off in spades may have been the best play. It also doesn't help that 1st seat didn't lead their best card, and that would have ironically scored us a point.Tbolt65 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:49 pmI made this play based on limited information. It's still the right play based on said limited information until a hand like this proves your limited observations wrong and then you have to adjust accordingly to your partners play calling range.
Tbolt65
Edward
Unread post by Tbolt65 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:20 pm
Wes (aka the legend) wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:09 pmYea I strongly disagree. The default play should never be to trump high send low with L+1 on a garbage green lead. That's just bad play imo.Tbolt65 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:49 pmI made this play based on limited information. It's still the right play based on said limited information until a hand like this proves your limited observations wrong and then you have to adjust accordingly to your partners play calling range.
Tbolt65
Edward
Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:34 pm
Unread post by Tbolt65 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:04 pm
Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:27 pm
Sorry dude, I'm not letting you off the hook on this one becuz it's too easy to explain logically why you are wrong.Tbolt65 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:04 pmYou just don't listen. I put my partner on Right - x or Any three trump. both scenario's with at least one off Ace. Since I had none. Trumping High sending low is a logical play from there. End of story. It only changes when Seat 2(me) finds out that dealer has the ordering capability of having two trump, no bauers. Now the line of play changes and there are several different ways to handle it. I went with that play to ensure I got one trick in and that I was not over trumped with sending my 9. I only take that chance if I have an ace to come back with after leading the left. This play is made once again to empty out trump on the opponents side. To help promote my partners aces and doubletons for that matter. To also put my partner in a better spot of having us March as a team. Now based on that information that I went with ( and was wrong) This play would hurt the two trump scenario with no bauers. You move on and you play accordingly with better information from what your partner is capable of. Period.!!!
Tbolt65
Edward
Unread post by irishwolf » Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:36 pm
Unread post by Tbolt65 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:26 pm
Unread post by irishwolf » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:42 pm
Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:33 am
You need to trash those assumptions asap bro becuz there is no player profile where trumping high and sending low with L+1 on a garbage green lead is the correct play.Tbolt65 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:26 pmEuchre is all about assumptions until proven otherwise. I made an assumption about my partner. Which was wrong so now that information was gathered other possibilities from your partner now open up and you play accordingly. I don't understand how hard this is for people to comprehend. I took a line. It was wrong. I made an incorrection assumption. So now I adjust my game to compliment my partner. I'm not just barking at you Wolf just a statement as a whole to those who have a hard time understanding the thought process.
Tbolt65
Edward
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