Was This The Best Way To Play This Hand?

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RedDuke
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Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Was This The Best Way To Play This Hand?

Post by RedDuke » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:50 am

This happened in a game yesterday and was just wondering if I played this right.

I had a very aggressive partner who was calling if he had anything at all. We were actually euchred three times in a row because he was calling on the thinnest of hands.

We were down 7-1 and I was dealer. I was holding this:

(Card_Q-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_K-H) (Card_9-S) (Card_10-D)

Up card was the (Card_10-C) .

I actually turned this down mostly based on my partner. If he had anything at all that would have helped (either black jack or the ace), it's a pretty safe bet that he would have ordered me up and I didn't want to try this if my opponents had all the top trump.

Did I make the right call here or was it worth a shot?



irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:04 am

I would have picked up the 10c, discarded the spade. Down 7 to 1 - YOU CAN'T PASS!

Sure a marginal hand. You need two tricks from your partner as you have 1.5 - 1.75 tricks. You also have to lead trump as quickly as possible.

You have nothing else in your hand no matter who makes trump if you pass. Most players will pass on this hand. You get euchred a bunch too.

irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:05 am

Oh - so what happened after you passed? And what did the other players have in clubs and aces?

RedDuke
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Post by RedDuke » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:47 am

Everybody passed second round. It was stick the dealer, so I chose to try reverse next and picked hearts. My partner had a hand full of kings and queens mostly and looked to be at least three or four suited. First trick, eldest leads the right bower, effectively taking out my partner's only trump (the left) and mine. Things kind of went downhill from there. Basically, from the way it played out, the opponents were going to win this hand no matter what I called (they had between them both black jacks, the ace of clubs, jack of hearts, both red aces)...

Still though, those kinds of hands don't happen very much so I'm just trying to figure out how to improve my strategy for future games.

irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:08 pm

WOW! Shit happens in euchre. So they had all suits covered. You playing against bagger's or at least very conservative. Obvious as you partner got euchred 3X. When that occurs you also have to step back on being aggressive calling. Especially that women players are more conservative in calling - need a fistful to make trump. At 7 to 1 they could afford to sit back and Wait.

Playing STD, if all things equal with my hand and I am the dealer, Next works better. For the reason that both opponents did not want next, and my partner passed and probably has a weak hand in next. My partner should have called opposite but did not, meaning he has little in those two suits.

Still when down by that much, the game is already out of control but you have no choice but call some.

Things kind of went downhill from there. Basically, from the way it played out, the opponents were going to win this hand no matter what I called (they had between them both black jacks, the ace of clubs, jack of hearts, both red aces)...

Catch10110
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Location: Aurora, IL

Post by Catch10110 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:35 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:08 pm
Especially that women players are more conservative in calling - need a fistful to make trump.
Now THAT is a generalization i wouldn't want to make. :lol:

RedDuke
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Post by RedDuke » Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:07 pm

When that occurs you also have to step back on being aggressive calling. Especially that women players are more conservative in calling - need a fistful to make trump. At 7 to 1 they could afford to sit back and Wait.
Yeah, a lot of times when you're playing online people are hyper-conservative. I've seen people that don't call unless they're holding three trump and a side ace. Makes it harder to try calling next from first seat too if second seat is too timid to call while holding both jacks and a king-queen in a side suit!

irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:05 pm

I agree that Next does not work well against conservative players or less experienced players because they are passing on biddable hands.

Makes it harder to try calling next from first seat too if second seat is too timid to call

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:35 am

RedDuke wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:50 am
We were down 7-1 and I was dealer. I was holding this:

(Card_Q-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_K-H) (Card_9-S) (Card_10-D)

Up card was the (Card_10-C) .
This is one of those hands where you call more for defensive purposes than offense. You just can't risk handing the ball off to the 1 seat with a 3 trump hand when you have a nearly dead hand if you pass. Look at it this way. Yes you are going to get euchred more than you'd like with this weak holding but given that you have a 4 suited, no ace, nothing hand that blocks nothing if you pass, your first round order will stop a 1 seat loner sweep/2 point call more often than usual. So the theoretical cost of getting euchred on your weak call isn't as bad as it looks.

I know you were making a player-based read adjustment. I get where you're coming from, but passing with this hand is just too risky imo. This dynamic often comes up in euchre. You'll get a good read on someone based on their playing style or a hesitation, and you'll wanna alter your strategy becuz of that but you often can't. You're often handcuffed into a call at least for defensive purposes.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:44 am

RedDuke wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:07 pm
Yeah, a lot of times when you're playing online people are hyper-conservative. I've seen people that don't call unless they're holding three trump and a side ace. Makes it harder to try calling next from first seat too if second seat is too timid to call while holding both jacks and a king-queen in a side suit!
It is true that your next calls will blow up more often with conservative players, but that doesn't mean you should necessarily make adjustments. Calling next is primarily a defensive strategy. I.E. you call next mostly becuz you don't block reverse next.

E.G. the dealer turns down a (Card_Q-H)

Your team is up 6-2 and you have this hand in the 1 seat:

(Card_J-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S)

Not calling next in this spot would be a mistake no matter what the game texture.

jblowery
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Post by jblowery » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:01 am

Assume a neutral score. Any situations where you would pass won 3 low trump? I wouldn't. 3 low trump with junk on the side may lose 2 or 4 if something else gets called too. Maybe if I had a side jack?

Richardb02
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Post by Richardb02 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:45 pm

I believe quantitative analysis answers all questions and points raised in this post. Quantitative analysis simply assigns a value to the cards and make up of the hand. The Basic analysis:
0.50 Value of being the Dealer
0.50 Q trump
0.25 9 Trump
0.25 10 Trump
0.25 1 Void
0.50 value of 3 trump(note Q, 9, T are the weakest 3 trump combo)
2.25 Total Value of the hand
2.00 Minimum for a call from Dealer position (65% chance of success, break-even)
The extra 0.25 point indicates, IMO, a 72% chance of success, +.08 EV

More advanced analysis would indicate an adjustment for an aggressive Partner
-.25 for an Aggressively bidding Partner
2.00 Still meets the 2.00 test to pick up

The next level of advanced analysis would be:
0.25 Next not being blocked
0.25 No potential 2nd round call (no reverse next bowers)
2.50 Now I would call it an "Indicator" to call, which exceeds the 2.00 minimum.(You still only have a 65 or 72% chance of earning a point, depending on whether Partner is Aggressive or Normal).

This straightforward approach emphatically tells me to Pick Up in all scenarios discussed. It consistently reminds me to play aggressively, with confidence. That matches the Ohio Euchre wisdom of play aggressively for better results.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:27 pm

jblowery wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:01 am
Assume a neutral score. Any situations where you would pass won 3 low trump? I wouldn't. 3 low trump with junk on the side may lose 2 or 4 if something else gets called too. Maybe if I had a side jack?
I can't think of one situation unless we REALLY try to create some highly specific scenario where Seat 2 is super aggressive like OP stated and Seat 1 is really bad, I.E. passing tons of biddable hands in the 2nd Rd and barely ever going alone. Once we're trying that hard tho it basically proves the point: Don't pass 3 low trump.

However, there are three trump combos you can pass from the dealer spot. The type of hands where if you pass you have that euchre hand.

Example:

Score is 0-0. You are the dealer. The upcard is the (Card_Q-S)

You have (Card_K-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_A-S) (Card_J-D) (Card_Q-H)

We have all suits blocked, we gotta next call in big trouble, we have approx two tricks in any called suit, and our hand in the first round isn't exactly invincible. It's probably correct to always pass this, but it's absolutely mandatory if Seat 1 is an aggressive player.

RedDuke
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Post by RedDuke » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:22 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:27 pm
jblowery wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:01 am
Assume a neutral score. Any situations where you would pass won 3 low trump? I wouldn't. 3 low trump with junk on the side may lose 2 or 4 if something else gets called too. Maybe if I had a side jack?
I can't think of one situation unless we REALLY try to create some highly specific scenario where Seat 2 is super aggressive like OP stated and Seat 1 is really bad, I.E. passing tons of biddable hands in the 2nd Rd and barely ever going alone. Once we're trying that hard tho it basically proves the point: Don't pass 3 low trump.

However, there are three trump combos you can pass from the dealer spot. The type of hands where if you pass you have that euchre hand.

Example:

Score is 0-0. You are the dealer. The upcard is the (Card_Q-S)

You have (Card_K-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_A-S) (Card_J-D) (Card_Q-H)

We have all suits blocked, we gotta next call in big trouble, we have approx two tricks in any called suit, and our hand in the first round isn't exactly invincible. It's probably correct to always pass this, but it's absolutely mandatory if Seat 1 is an aggressive player.
One scenario might be something like this:

You're in first seat holding

(Card_Q-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_J-D) (Card_J-H)

Upcard is (Card_J-S) or (Card_A-S) .

It might be worth passing this one in both rounds. The reason being that the dealer is pretty unlikely to be able to pull off a loner sweep with you holding three trump. The most likely outcome of this one if he picks up is that it'll be a one-point hand for his side. However, if you order him up he has a decent chance to euchre you if he does have another spade in his hand. This is a case where the dealer probably won't be able to get five tricks but he's got a good chance to get three if that card is in his hand.

Meanwhile, if they don't pick up, you've got a hand that could do some serious damage to the opponents on a second round reverse next call. If your partner is able to take a trick (reasonable if he's holding the Ace of Clubs) then you've euchred them.

Where passing here will get you into trouble is on a next call by either second seat or the dealer. However, if the opponents turned down upcard here (especially if it was the jack) then the jack of clubs is most likely in your partner's hand. In this case then the opposition still isn't going to get five tricks so it's still a one-point hand if they call.

Note that this isn't a guarantee... it's just that the odds will probably work out in your favor by passing here in both rounds even though you do have three trump by ordering up.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:08 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:22 pm
It might be worth passing this one in both rounds. The reason being that the dealer is pretty unlikely to be able to pull off a loner sweep with you holding three trump. The most likely outcome of this one if he picks up is that it'll be a one-point hand for his side. However, if you order him up he has a decent chance to euchre you if he does have another spade in his hand. This is a case where the dealer probably won't be able to get five tricks but he's got a good chance to get three if that card is in his hand.

Meanwhile, if they don't pick up, you've got a hand that could do some serious damage to the opponents on a second round reverse next call. If your partner is able to take a trick (reasonable if he's holding the Ace of Clubs) then you've euchred them.

Where passing here will get you into trouble is on a next call by either second seat or the dealer. However, if the opponents turned down upcard here (especially if it was the jack) then the jack of clubs is most likely in your partner's hand. In this case then the opposition still isn't going to get five tricks so it's still a one-point hand if they call.

Note that this isn't a guarantee... it's just that the odds will probably work out in your favor by passing here in both rounds even though you do have three trump by ordering up.
With this hand I would pass in the first round at all scores except up 9-7, 9-6. At those scores I always donate if I don't have a loner blocked. Playing this strictly also helps my partner read my hand. At those scores my partner will always know I have a guaranteed trick which can enable him to order more loosely from the 3rd seat to win the game.

Now if I passed and the dealer passed, there's no way I'm passing in the 2nd rd with no clubs and no off aces when I have two guaranteed tricks in red. I know that the 2 seat or 4 seat is statically less likely to have that club hand given the action in the first round but they can still have it and if they call clubs we have a complete dead hand. Furthermore we also have to worry about our partner calling clubs. That can easily lead to our team getting euchred since we have no help and no good lead.

In this spot I'd rather just call red and give my partner every opportunity to get a trick. We dont need much help, just an off ace that walks is all our partner has to provide. I'd hate myself if I passed two sure tricks and then seat two went alone in clubs or even called clubs and got 2 points. And even if seat 2 called clubs and got just 1 pt. That's still a negative 2 pt swing if our red call would've scored a pt.

There are situations where I will pass in the 1 seat 2nd rd without having Next blocked. It's when I have reverse next blocked but I'm still too marginal to cross the river or call next. But when I have two guaranteed tricks if I cross the river and a dead hand in next, then I'm crossing the river every time.

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