5-7 Friday Hand #1

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Tbolt65
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5-7 Friday Hand #1

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Sat May 08, 2021 2:57 am

Should trump be lead or no? Take your bumps and call it a day? I know what I favor be interesting to hear people's thoughts on to why or why not.

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Tbolt65
Edward



Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1521
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat May 08, 2021 5:36 am

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 2:57 am
Should trump be lead or no? Take your bumps and call it a day? I know what I favor be interesting to hear people's thoughts on to why or why not.





https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D


Tbolt65
Edward
I would not lead trump in that spot. I get it. Leading trump saves the day here, but what happens in one hand doesn't mean much to me. The question that matters is which line is better in the long run. We may never find out. Well I guess it's possible to do a kitchen table sample on this spot. After the maker takes the first trick we have to shuffle the unseen cards (if anyone gets a calling hand reshuffle to keep the distribution true) and play it out both ways over and over until we reach a 95 CI.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Sat May 08, 2021 8:48 am

I am going to disagree. Not 100% confident but I think you have fewer choices to make a point not leading trump! So I will say you Must lead trump. That ground has been covered before. There are more possibilities that each player will have only one trump. Even if one has two, you need to remove one opponent from play. Then hope your partner has AH or AC to help out.
If dealer had KH xH, then it becomes a toss up. IMO. But ya, could be tested. I think I have tested that, historically speaking.

Tbolt65
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Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Sat May 08, 2021 2:48 pm

Wes I have said countless times to you that you have to lead trump with 3trump IrishWolf agree's with me so there is your confirmation from a math oriented person. Although you should be agreeing with me more often until something you don't understand proves otherwise or differently. It's just a good way to play/go about things and up your game when someone as versed in euchre(as myself) tell's you one thing. So do it when you are unsure or if you are playing a particular hand poorly. Until proven other wise listen to your euchre elders(Don't get me started on age of a person or years of playing the game. Most of the time that has little to NO merits as to how good a person can be at euchre).


Tbolt65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1521
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat May 08, 2021 2:52 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 2:48 pm
Wes I have said countless times to you that you have to lead trump with 3trump IrishWolf agree's with me so there is your confirmation from a math oriented person. Although you should be agreeing with me more often until something you don't understand proves otherwise or differently. It's just a good way to play/go about things and up your game when someone as versed in euchre(as myself) tell's you one thing. So do it when you are unsure or if you are playing a particular hand poorly. Until proven other wise listen to your euchre elders(Don't get me started on age of a person or years of playing the game. Most of the time that has little to NO merits as to how good a person can be at euchre).


Tbolt65
Edward
Sorry dude I don't think you're a better player than me. And I still need concrete evidence to play this hand differently.

irishwolf
Posts: 1201
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Sat May 08, 2021 3:14 pm

Lol:

"Until proven other wise listen to your euchre elders(Don't get me started on age of a person or years of playing the game."

It's only a game fellas. I already said my piece.

Tbolt65
Posts: 786
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Sat May 08, 2021 3:34 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 2:52 pm
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 2:48 pm
Wes I have said countless times to you that you have to lead trump with 3trump IrishWolf agree's with me so there is your confirmation from a math oriented person. Although you should be agreeing with me more often until something you don't understand proves otherwise or differently. It's just a good way to play/go about things and up your game when someone as versed in euchre(as myself) tell's you one thing. So do it when you are unsure or if you are playing a particular hand poorly. Until proven other wise listen to your euchre elders(Don't get me started on age of a person or years of playing the game. Most of the time that has little to NO merits as to how good a person can be at euchre).


Tbolt65
Edward
Sorry dude I don't think you're a better player than me. And I still need concrete evidence to play this hand differently.
Your lack of trust and overthinking is what makes you second guess too much instead of just going with what works until proven otherwise. I am better than you for 1 reason and one reason alone. The main one and your most glaring flaw is you give away; way, way too many points. You also make more mistakes than I do, ok so there's two.

Other than that. I think your inter-game play is pretty good along with hand reading. With the exception, you don't trump enough on the first lead sometimes it's minor but it does cost some points at times whether that be 1 point or 2 points. That's probably the least of the worries. However jumping fence too often when you have callable hands for your partner has hurt a lot. Although with me it doesn't hurt as much because I'm excellent like yourself at reading whats been played and gambling expertly as yourself. It's still something you need to balance more and not just calling your strengths of your hand but calling for your partner when they pass or are bagging, it's a partnership game remember.

Tbolt65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1521
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat May 08, 2021 4:01 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 3:34 pm
Your lack of trust and overthinking is what makes you second guess too much instead of just going with what works until proven otherwise.
Needing concrete evidence is not overthinking. Its what all rational people should do. And without real evidence WE ALL go with what works until proven otherwise. That's how human brains work whether it's correct or not.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 3:34 pm
I am better than you for 1 reason and one reason alone. The main one and your most glaring flaw is you give away; way, way too many points. You also make more mistakes than I do, ok so there's two.
The idea that I give away too many points is just fish talk. That needs to be proven. Everyone in our tournament thinks I give away too many points as I get euchred more than anyone there. But guess who the f**king 2019 champion was (i missed too many months due to covid to have a shot in 2020)

On the mistakes front that's not true. You make a lot mistakes. I record everyone of them. There's no way I make more than you. You have a very nice selective memory going there.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 3:34 pm
Other than that. I think your inter-game play is pretty good along with hand reading. With the exception, you don't trump enough on the first lead sometimes it's minor but it does cost some points at times whether that be 1 point or 2 points. That's probably the least of the worries. However jumping fence too often when you have callable hands for your partner has hurt a lot. Although with me it doesn't hurt as much because I'm excellent like yourself at reading whats been played and gambling expertly as yourself. It's still something you need to balance more and not just calling your strengths of your hand but calling for your partner when they pass or are bagging, it's a partnership game remember.

Tbolt65
Edward
Meh no way to prove any of that, and I'm never gonna be a hoyle loyal player. There's times you go with Hoyle and there's times you gotta play your hand. You don't seem to get that.

Bottom line is this. All I hear is talk talk talk. When a championship. Beat my records on the app. Do something man.

Tbolt65
Posts: 786
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 4:01 pm
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 3:34 pm
Your lack of trust and overthinking is what makes you second guess too much instead of just going with what works until proven otherwise.
Needing concrete evidence is not overthinking. Its what all rational people should do. And without real evidence WE ALL go with what works until proven otherwise. That's how human brains work whether it's correct or not.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 3:34 pm
I am better than you for 1 reason and one reason alone. The main one and your most glaring flaw is you give away; way, way too many points. You also make more mistakes than I do, ok so there's two.
The idea that I give away too many points is just fish talk. That needs to be proven. Everyone in our tournament thinks I give away too many points as I get euchred more than anyone there. But guess who the f**king 2019 champion was (i missed too many months due to covid to have a shot in 2020)




On the mistakes front that's not true. You make a lot mistakes. I record everyone of them. There's no way I make more than you. You have a very nice selective memory going there.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 3:34 pm
Other than that. I think your inter-game play is pretty good along with hand reading. With the exception, you don't trump enough on the first lead sometimes it's minor but it does cost some points at times whether that be 1 point or 2 points. That's probably the least of the worries. However jumping fence too often when you have callable hands for your partner has hurt a lot. Although with me it doesn't hurt as much because I'm excellent like yourself at reading whats been played and gambling expertly as yourself. It's still something you need to balance more and not just calling your strengths of your hand but calling for your partner when they pass or are bagging, it's a partnership game remember.

Tbolt65
Edward
Meh no way to prove any of that, and I'm never gonna be a hoyle loyal player. There's times you go with Hoyle and there's times you gotta play your hand. You don't seem to get that.

I get that just fine, its you who don't get the converse, because your mind won't allow it because it isn't set up that way. You come from a different outlook.

Bottom line is this. All I hear is talk talk talk. When a championship. Beat my records on the app. Do something man.

I've already done something its you that need to step up to me not the other way around. Sure you have some nice accomplishments but I stop playing euchre at a time where I had nothing to prove. Plus my life took me in another direction. Long ago I proved to myself that I was good enough to compete at any level and be successful verse anyone type of players regardless if they were better individually than me or not. I am an honest person and a realist. I have no reason to lie or to say this or that to save face or to make myself better than what I really am. Everyone makes mistakes like I have said in previous posts. Everyone, it's comes down to making as little mistakes as possible that puts people on another level. But first one's game must be well rounded and developed. If not then those mistakes plus the over all mistakes compound and its hard to over come in certain scenarios.

However, what you consider as mistakes and what I consider as mistakes are vastly different at times due to our concepts of the game. What can not be disputed is your repeated of bleeding of points. Even the meek in euchre see's this and they think you suck for it. I know you don't suck and far from it. If they really knew how good of a euchre player you really are. They are just blinded by the fact you get euchre a lot and it pisses them off They don't see the awesome plays you make to get a euchre or ensure that point is made or the nice march. They don't have that higher concept of euchre nor care to think there is any.

You see I am humble in my understandings in and about euchre. You are not. If anyone is more headstrong in euchre it is yourself. This is to your detriment. You have the ability to learn new things only if it meets your certain criteria. As for me I have been open to all possibilities. Your lack of faith in certain area's have curbed your potential, but your critical thinking and determination has gotten you this far and is something to be commended. Not many people have the euchre acuity you have attained. There is always more though. Always.

You see I knew from the beginning that just by your personality and strong headedness that you don't change unless its put in your face to see it. Sometimes even then your are skeptical especially when it doesn't conform to the ways you expect things should be ascertained.

You have been on this forum longer than I have. We have good players here and they should be able to recognize what I have spoken about. Especially if those meek euchre players can. I would be shocked to hear differently. Really shocked.

Wes I am not here to tear you down I am here to build upon what you already have and to like I've said put that nice shiny touch/polish on all the facets of that pretty diamond that you really are. That's all. If you want it, it's but yours to take. "I can only show you the door, your the one that has to walk through it"- The Matrix


P.S. If you haven't figured it out by now, that such in life. There are many roads to the same destination. But upon these roads many times they will intersect with each other. To put it simply we both have similar playstyles but gotten to where we are at by completely different means and justifications. When we are at these intersectional spaces on our paths to being the best we can be. It is important to learn from each other. Which we both have. Keep that in mind we can always still learn something from each other. Iron sharpens Iron, Wes.


Tbolt65
Edward


Edit: Also keep in mind. The last time some one challenged me on my ideas and thoughts about the game of euchre. It didn't end well for them. With that person I agreed with some things they had to say but not everything and I proved my, conceptions about the game of euchre was superior. There are not many area's that I feel uncomfortable with or unsure of. If I feel that I may not be correct or it may not be potentially optimal to play a particular way. I will say so. I have no qualms about being wrong about something. Like I said. I go with what I have learned and come to know over my vast playing experience and learnings from my previous teachers until proven other wise.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1521
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat May 08, 2021 6:49 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
I get that just fine, its you who don't get the converse, because your mind won't allow it because it isn't set up that way. You come from a different outlook.
Dude, there is nobody that goes with Hoyle more than me, so I have no clue why you keep bringing this up. But I'm not gonna go with Hoyle to the point where it hurts my team.

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
I've already done something its you that need to step up to me not the other way around.


I have not seen you do ANYTHING but you are a good talker.

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Sure you have some nice accomplishments but I stop playing euchre at a time where I had nothing to prove.


[email protected] "nothing to prove", you had so many holes in your game when I first met you and I have done my best to try to help you plug those holes. I'm still working on it, but if you refuse to go with the math then the growth in your game will always be stunted.

The reason why I won that tournament is because I'm better than anybody in that room. When I walk into that room, I am the pimp and ya'll the hoes. Not becuz I'm smarter or more clever than anyone else, it's becuz I have "the madness" and nobody else in that tournament, including you, has it. When other people are living their lives I'm thinking about this game. When I go the bathroom, I'm thinking about this game. When I'm eating, having sex, I'm thinking about this game. I never stop thinking about this game. I'm always making improvements getting better every week. Nobody studies the game like I do, except Wolf. He has "the madness" too. I hope to meet him someday. You still have no clue who you are talking too. It's cute. Like even if it was a proven fact that you are better than me today, give me 2 weeks and it wouldn't be the case. Again, you have no clue who you are talking too.

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
However, what you consider as mistakes and what I consider as mistakes are vastly different at times due to our concepts of the game.


Nah, it doesn't matter what kind of mistake we're talking about. Yes you do make a lot of disturbing systematic mistakes, but even ignoring those, you make way more mistakes than me. Probably your ADD or something, I don't know what it is. Or youre just tired or something.

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
What can not be disputed is your repeated of bleeding of points. Even the meek in euchre see's this and they think you suck for it.


First of all, all that matters is the math. If the math says I'm burning points, then that's the end of the discussion. Your perception that I'm burning points has no value to me except for hypothesis generating purposes. You already thought I was "burning points" on my R1-S1 3 trump, no 2nd rd hand, calls, and me and Wolf proved it was actually YOU who was burning points. You trust your perception WAY too much. It's the numbers that matter. And LOL @you if you really think the fact that nearly everyone in our tournament thinks I suck validates the point you're trying to make. If anything that hurts your claim.

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
I know you don't suck and far from it. If they really knew how good of a euchre player you really are. They are just blinded by the fact you get euchre a lot and it pisses them off They don't see the awesome plays you make to get a euchre or ensure that point is made or the nice march. They don't have that higher concept of euchre nor care to think there is any.


People, including you will always be blinded by the euchres cuz they'll never sit down and run the samples and do the math. They/you only focus on one side of the equation. They fail to see--becuz it's not seeable unless one sits down at the kitchen table--all the points an aggressive strategy saves. They only focus on what they CAN see, the euchres.

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
You see I am humble in my understandings in and about euchre. You are not. If anyone is more headstrong in euchre it is yourself. This is to your detriment. You have the ability to learn new things only if it meets your certain criteria. As for me I have been open to all possibilities. Your lack of faith in certain area's have curbed your potential, but your critical thinking and determination has gotten you this far and is something to be commended. Not many people have the euchre acuity you have attained. There is always more though. Always.


Look I know I'm the best in that tournament and I know why I'm the best. Nobody is obsessed with this game like me. I'm not bragging about this, I can't control it, it's actually a problem imo. So yeah, you could say I'm not humble in that sense. I mean I'm nice to everybody, I never get mad at anyone and when people criticize me I always take it and never argue back (Never argue with the fishes just like in poker, always agree with them). So I'm humble in that way. I just want people to be happy and have a good time. Most importantly, the other way I'm humble is I never think I know it all. I'm always sponging off of other good players including you, even a bad player can do something ingenious once in awhile that can lead me to formulating a new hypothesis. And I'm also always trying to prove myself wrong at the kitchen table at home. I love proving myself wrong. That's the best high I'll ever get. That's the only way one can grow. And yes it goes without saying, my ability to "learn new things" DOES have to meet a certain criteria. I'm a science guy. I'm always gonna say "show me the data". Talk talk talk does not impress me.

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
You see I knew from the beginning that just by your personality and strong headedness that you don't change unless its put in your face to see it. Sometimes even then your are skeptical especially when it doesn't conform to the ways you expect things should be ascertained.


One should always be skeptical until they see the data. I'm skeptical of many strategies I employ right now becuz I don't have strong data backing it up. That's the only way to be imo. When we don't have the data I will always listen to anything you have to say, but keep in mind becuz I get better results than you in my actual play, and becuz you make a lot more mistakes than me, If I don't have the data and you don't have the data, I'm gonna initially side with my take on the game when we have a disagreement. That's only natural. But I never ignore anything you say.

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
You have been on this forum longer than I have. We have good players here and they should be able to recognize what I have spoken about. Especially if those meek euchre players can. I would be shocked to hear differently. Really shocked.


Lol like I care what the meek/bad players think. Look here's the thing. ANYONE who wants the respect of others are playing the wrong game. I've always said, if an amateur and an expert play euchre together it will be the amateur that invariably walks away thinking "That guy is an idiot" while the expert just sighs. The difference between expert play and how most players play is THAT large.

Almost everyone in our tournament thinks I'm a crazy idiot and that's the way it SHOULD be. Becuz people don't understand the math underpinning the game, or they're not willing to figure it out cuz it's "just a game" to them, ANY expert that pushes ALL edges is gonna look like they are "burning points". If most players didn't think I sucked then I'd be worried.

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Wes I am not here to tear you down I am here to build upon what you already have and to like I've said put that nice shiny touch/polish on all the facets of that pretty diamond that you really are. That's all. If you want it, it's but yours to take. "I can only show you the door, your the one that has to walk through it"- The Matrix


You are a strong player. I've sponged a lot off of you. But you take your own thoughts way too seriously. You need to heed the common cliche "The easiest person to fool is yourself". In so many spots in this game your confidence is unjustified. There are many areas in this game you are needlessly burning points becuz you think you can outsmart the math, which is totally irrational.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
P.S. If you haven't figured it out by now, that such in life. There are many roads to the same destination. But upon these roads many times they will intersect with each other. To put it simply we both have similar playstyles but gotten to where we are at by completely different means and justifications. When we are at these intersectional spaces on our paths to being the best we can be. It is important to learn from each other. Which we both have. Keep that in mind we can always still learn something from each other. Iron sharpens Iron, Wes.


Tbolt65
Edward


If you're gonna ignore the math and talk about "burning points" like every other fish you can't get to destination I'm going. I'm gonna leave you in the dust bro.

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Edit: Also keep in mind. The last time some one challenged me on my ideas and thoughts about the game of euchre. It didn't end well for them. With that person I agreed with some things they had to say but not everything and I proved my, conceptions about the game of euchre was superior. There are not many area's that I feel uncomfortable with or unsure of. If I feel that I may not be correct or it may not be potentially optimal to play a particular way. I will say so. I have no qualms about being wrong about something. Like I said. I go with what I have learned and come to know over my vast playing experience and learnings from my previous teachers until proven other wise.


I'm not challenging you. I'm just saying you do a lot of talking for someone who has accomplished basically nothing. You gotta understand that Legends aren't impressed with talk talk talk. When a championship. Beat my record on the app. Nobody cares about how good you think you are.

Tbolt65
Posts: 786
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Sun May 09, 2021 1:01 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 6:49 pm
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
I get that just fine, its you who don't get the converse, because your mind won't allow it because it isn't set up that way. You come from a different outlook.
Dude, there is nobody that goes with Hoyle more than me, so I have no clue why you keep bringing this up. But I'm not gonna go with Hoyle to the point where it hurts my team.

You call hoyle when you have nothing else to call and you don't want to pass. You need to balance your hoyle calls more so your not jumping fence as much vs When you have something you think is better for your hand. For example today playing with IrishWolf. I told him 100 percent Wes would of not of made this call hoyle call.

(Card_A-S) (Card_J-S) (Card_K-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_9-D) thats the roughly what I had. It was some kinda of diamond though. I was in first seat with Dealer turning down diamonds. It may of been the Jack of diamonds not sure. I called Next/hoyle and we make point. Like with this hand. This is a perfect example where you need to be calling Hoyle. You have two trump, with an off-ace doubleton and a void. You are likely to hit your partner especially me knowing how much I bag as your partner and with any good partner for that matter. It's just math that hoyle is is going to hit your partner more often than not from Seat 1 and seat 2 with hoyle being the reverse color of what was turned down. When you have Three trump in something else then you start playing your hand. It won't always work and you will get euchred. However even with that said, there still may be times with having three trump in another suit you still call properly with hoyle or reverse next in it's corresponding positions.
It just all depends. 3 Trump is where I start considering more strongly to jump the fence. If I have only 0 or 1 in Next but two strong trump to jump the fence with. I will make that call. It will highly depend on the situation though.


Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
I've already done something its you that need to step up to me not the other way around.


I have not seen you do ANYTHING but you are a good talker.

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Sure you have some nice accomplishments but I stop playing euchre at a time where I had nothing to prove.


[email protected] "nothing to prove", you had so many holes in your game when I first met you and I have done my best to try to help you plug those holes. I'm still working on it, but if you refuse to go with the math then the growth in your game will always be stunted.

The reason why I won that tournament is because I'm better than anybody in that room. When I walk into that room, I am the pimp and ya'll the hoes. Not becuz I'm smarter or more clever than anyone else, it's becuz I have "the madness" and nobody else in that tournament, including you, has it. When other people are living their lives I'm thinking about this game. When I go the bathroom, I'm thinking about this game. When I'm eating, having sex, I'm thinking about this game. I never stop thinking about this game. I'm always making improvements getting better every week. Nobody studies the game like I do, except Wolf. He has "the madness" too. I hope to meet him someday. You still have no clue who you are talking too. It's cute. Like even if it was a proven fact that you are better than me today, give me 2 weeks and it wouldn't be the case. Again, you have no clue who you are talking too.

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
However, what you consider as mistakes and what I consider as mistakes are vastly different at times due to our concepts of the game.


Nah, it doesn't matter what kind of mistake we're talking about. Yes you do make a lot of disturbing systematic mistakes, but even ignoring those, you make way more mistakes than me. Probably your ADD or something, I don't know what it is. Or youre just tired or something.

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
What can not be disputed is your repeated of bleeding of points. Even the meek in euchre see's this and they think you suck for it.


First of all, all that matters is the math. If the math says I'm burning points, then that's the end of the discussion. Your perception that I'm burning points has no value to me except for hypothesis generating purposes. You already thought I was "burning points" on my R1-S1 3 trump, no 2nd rd hand, calls, and me and Wolf proved it was actually YOU who was burning points. You trust your perception WAY too much. It's the numbers that matter. And LOL @you if you really think the fact that nearly everyone in our tournament thinks I suck validates the point you're trying to make. If anything that hurts your claim.


Ok do me a favor, correction do yourself a favor. You do this privately so no one has to know. You go ask Phil, You ask Pat, You Ask Don/Dlan, You ask Irishwolf, You ask Richard, You ask Lefty. Ask them this question. Ask them who get's euchred more/bleeds unnecessary points, Tbolt65/Edward Or WesakatheLegend. You keep that to yourself and you don't even have to say anything to me or even on these boards. Collect that data from those people because they are the one's that play with you the most and are people I think you consider to be respected.

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
I know you don't suck and far from it. If they really knew how good of a euchre player you really are. They are just blinded by the fact you get euchre a lot and it pisses them off They don't see the awesome plays you make to get a euchre or ensure that point is made or the nice march. They don't have that higher concept of euchre nor care to think there is any.


People, including you will always be blinded by the euchres cuz they'll never sit down and run the samples and do the math. They/you only focus on one side of the equation. They fail to see--becuz it's not seeable unless one sits down at the kitchen table--all the points an aggressive strategy saves. They only focus on what they CAN see, the euchres.

This is what you fail to see. And why you fail in parts of your game. You fail see that anyone can actually see this. It can be seen with many hours of critical play and analyzation of the playing and countless playing against different levels of players and what works in what situations and what doesn't work in others. Your mind can not fathom how anyone can do this with out doing it as how you say it should be done. The proof is in the pudding. The proof is in how I talk about euchre, and and in my play. How did I get to my current play where it stands right now? Am I the luckiest guy in the world to how I approach the game? To know the things I do? Am I lucky by happenstance? There are many things you fail to address that is why you keep going on with the "cool story" motif because you can't counter argue what I said, with out looking a little bit foolishly at those times.


This sums it up the best here,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EwcYwax4Oo



Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
You see I am humble in my understandings in and about euchre. You are not. If anyone is more headstrong in euchre it is yourself. This is to your detriment. You have the ability to learn new things only if it meets your certain criteria. As for me I have been open to all possibilities. Your lack of faith in certain area's have curbed your potential, but your critical thinking and determination has gotten you this far and is something to be commended. Not many people have the euchre acuity you have attained. There is always more though. Always.


Look I know I'm the best in that tournament and I know why I'm the best. Nobody is obsessed with this game like me. I'm not bragging about this, I can't control it, it's actually a problem imo. So yeah, you could say I'm not humble in that sense. I mean I'm nice to everybody, I never get mad at anyone and when people criticize me I always take it and never argue back (Never argue with the fishes just like in poker, always agree with them). So I'm humble in that way. I just want people to be happy and have a good time. Most importantly, the other way I'm humble is I never think I know it all. I'm always sponging off of other good players including you, even a bad player can do something ingenious once in awhile that can lead me to formulating a new hypothesis. And I'm also always trying to prove myself wrong at the kitchen table at home. I love proving myself wrong. That's the best high I'll ever get. That's the only way one can grow. And yes it goes without saying, my ability to "learn new things" DOES have to meet a certain criteria. I'm a science guy. I'm always gonna say "show me the data". Talk talk talk does not impress me.



Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
You see I knew from the beginning that just by your personality and strong headedness that you don't change unless its put in your face to see it. Sometimes even then your are skeptical especially when it doesn't conform to the ways you expect things should be ascertained.


One should always be skeptical until they see the data. I'm skeptical of many strategies I employ right now becuz I don't have strong data backing it up. That's the only way to be imo. When we don't have the data I will always listen to anything you have to say, but keep in mind becuz I get better results than you in my actual play, and becuz you make a lot more mistakes than me, If I don't have the data and you don't have the data, I'm gonna initially side with my take on the game when we have a disagreement. That's only natural. But I never ignore anything you say.

You are going to be waiting a long time then to get to where you think your going then if you solely rely on the data by math only to confirm it. Experiential evidence with enough play and in the many and various scenarios should suffice if people have had enough experience with those should be at face value taken very seriously. It's the take it for what it is, until proven other wise mentality when you don't have solid data yourself. However if you are not able to think, or accept things for which they are you will never grow in regard to using that kind or type of information then.

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
You have been on this forum longer than I have. We have good players here and they should be able to recognize what I have spoken about. Especially if those meek euchre players can. I would be shocked to hear differently. Really shocked.


Lol like I care what the meek/bad players think. Look here's the thing. ANYONE who wants the respect of others are playing the wrong game. I've always said, if an amateur and an expert play euchre together it will be the amateur that invariably walks away thinking "That guy is an idiot" while the expert just sighs. The difference between expert play and how most players play is THAT large.



Almost everyone in our tournament thinks I'm a crazy idiot and that's the way it SHOULD be. Becuz people don't understand the math underpinning the game, or they're not willing to figure it out cuz it's "just a game" to them, ANY expert that pushes ALL edges is gonna look like they are "burning points". If most players didn't think I sucked then I'd be worried.

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Wes I am not here to tear you down I am here to build upon what you already have and to like I've said put that nice shiny touch/polish on all the facets of that pretty diamond that you really are. That's all. If you want it, it's but yours to take. "I can only show you the door, your the one that has to walk through it"- The Matrix


You are a strong player. I've sponged a lot off of you. But you take your own thoughts way too seriously. You need to heed the common cliche "The easiest person to fool is yourself". In so many spots in this game your confidence is unjustified. There are many areas in this game you are needlessly burning points becuz you think you can outsmart the math, which is totally irrational.


I can outsmart the person, not the math. I try to induce/make my opponents to make mistakes, I do however say the math can't show you things abstractly. This is where a lot of adjustments based on partners and opponents come into play that the math just can't put a number on or account for. For it is for these situations where math get's thrown out. it can be a guidance but that's only what it can be. Knowing what to, and how to do it comes with playing experience with various types of partners and opponents and knowing what you can and can not do with these said partners and opponents. it will also change some situational calls and passes because of these said factors along with game factors.


Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
P.S. If you haven't figured it out by now, that such in life. There are many roads to the same destination. But upon these roads many times they will intersect with each other. To put it simply we both have similar playstyles but gotten to where we are at by completely different means and justifications. When we are at these intersectional spaces on our paths to being the best we can be. It is important to learn from each other. Which we both have. Keep that in mind we can always still learn something from each other. Iron sharpens Iron, Wes.


Tbolt65
Edward


If you're gonna ignore the math and talk about "burning points" like every other fish you can't get to destination I'm going. I'm gonna leave you in the dust bro.

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Edit: Also keep in mind. The last time some one challenged me on my ideas and thoughts about the game of euchre. It didn't end well for them. With that person I agreed with some things they had to say but not everything and I proved my, conceptions about the game of euchre was superior. There are not many area's that I feel uncomfortable with or unsure of. If I feel that I may not be correct or it may not be potentially optimal to play a particular way. I will say so. I have no qualms about being wrong about something. Like I said. I go with what I have learned and come to know over my vast playing experience and learnings from my previous teachers until proven other wise.


I'm not challenging you. I'm just saying you do a lot of talking for someone who has accomplished basically nothing. You gotta understand that Legends aren't impressed with talk talk talk. When a championship. Beat my record on the app. Nobody cares about how good you think you are.


You are challenging me, my grasp of euchre and my knowledge and/or perception to grasp it fully or at all on a higher level.

When you above reference me as to being a fish, and blowing off my accomplishments(from another post) and my thought out responses with "cool story", is a very telling response. I don't need to break it down, and to highlight what it means. You've done it well enough yourself that everyone and anyone can see the ineptness and lack of, with that very kind of response and failure to understand. I don't know if you have bravado issues because you don't want to look weak in front of everyone here(at ohioeuchre.com) or not the prominent euchre expert. I don't know. I could go on speculating but it serves no purpose. I am not here to degrade you Wes only to try to help you in areas I think you can sew up a little better. Your take of me being the weaker player prevents you from seeing other possibilities. I have said countless times, that with me being out of euchre for 9 years takes a toll, I have said I am not the player I used to be and there may be area's I am still lacking in and need refreshers on to solidify my game. I tell you what, like I've been saying before. Playing these games Friday nights has helped out a lot. I work 12hrs a day, I don't play the 4-8hours of euchre everyday Like I used to back when I was at my peak playing days and all I thought about is euchre. I've been to the top of the euchre mountain. I stood amongst and with the best players in the world. Was I the best? NO I WAS NOT. I know what it takes to get there because I've been there. That's something you can never renounce from me from ever having or take away from me. Does that automatically mean there is nothing else to learn in Euchre? There is always something one can learn to get better at euchre. They day anyone stops and says, that's it. I'm the best is the day they stop getting better.



---------------------------------------------
In nearly everything I have said about this game here and my approach to it and it's considerations has all been about making people better. Not doing stuff that makes them a weaker player. My grasp and understandings and the capability to understand comes with having an analytical mind and being open to possibilities. Plus being able to see things abstractly by repetitive observations.

When I say there was a mistake and you said there wasn't no mistake. Make no mistake about it. There was a mistake. I'm talking about when I make an error and tell you about my error and you said there was not an error. Believe me there was an error. Or I wouldn't of said there was if I didn't see it and know it to be one. It's usually the little things that I am over critical about. It is the little things that separate the good players from the great players. Like I have always said, there is that extra level to euchre when playing at the highest levels. Making the least mistakes is the A number 1 thing one can do when one reaches a certain level of game play. That means making less mistakes in flip situations, making less mistakes by over donating, making less mistakes by giving up points, whether it be -1,-2 or -4. There are however good mistakes to make, as long as they were done for the right reason. However you like to quantify things as black and white and well euchre is not all black and white.

Tbolt65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1521
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sun May 09, 2021 4:31 am

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 1:01 am
You call hoyle when you have nothing else to call and you don't want to pass. You need to balance your hoyle calls more so your not jumping fence as much vs When you have something you think is better for your hand. For example today playing with IrishWolf. I told him 100 percent Wes would of not of made this call hoyle call.

(Card_A-S) (Card_J-S) (Card_K-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_9-D) thats the roughly what I had. It was some kinda of diamond though. I was in first seat with Dealer turning down diamonds. It may of been the Jack of diamonds not sure. I called Next/hoyle and we make point. Like with this hand. This is a perfect example where you need to be calling Hoyle. You have two trump, with an off-ace doubleton and a void. You are likely to hit your partner especially me knowing how much I bag as your partner and with any good partner for that matter. It's just math that hoyle is is going to hit your partner more often than not from Seat 1 and seat 2 with hoyle being the reverse color of what was turned down. When you have Three trump in something else then you start playing your hand. It won't always work and you will get euchred. However even with that said, there still may be times with having three trump in another suit you still call properly with hoyle or reverse next in it's corresponding positions.
It just all depends. 3 Trump is where I start considering more strongly to jump the fence. If I have only 0 or 1 in Next but two strong trump to jump the fence with. I will make that call. It will highly depend on the situation though.

This is an example where you are WAY too confident in what is right. If we are to have an honest discussion about this we have to admit that it is unknown whether jumping the fence in Spades is worse or better than going with hoyle with 2 low trump + a doubleton off ace. In fact I would postulate that the EVs between these competing choices is very close, so close it will likely not impact one's win% either way. And I've discussed this concept with you before: When the EV or projected EV of two choices are close to equal I will always take the more unconventional line. This makes me less readable/exploitable at zero cost to my team. BTW this is a concept that I'm not sure any euchre expert understands but it comes right from poker. When it costs you nothing always take the more unconventional line to keep people guessing). That's why I jump the fence here. And this unconventional call gains even more value in a tough game where thinking players are trying to trap you into Next calls. You gotta have some curve balls in your game dude. Trust me on that.

But besides that I have no clue why youre bitching and complaining about a spot that barely ever happens where the difference in EVs are razor thin at best.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
I've already done something its you that need to step up to me not the other way around.

Oh your 2006 final 4 run in the World series of euchre. That was eons ago bro. Win a championship or beat my record on the app or STFU. Do something. Your talk does not impress me at all.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Ok do me a favor, correction do yourself a favor. You do this privately so no one has to know. You go ask Phil, You ask Pat, You Ask Don/Dlan, You ask Irishwolf, You ask Richard, You ask Lefty. Ask them this question. Ask them who get's euchred more/bleeds unnecessary points, Tbolt65/Edward Or WesakatheLegend. You keep that to yourself and you don't even have to say anything to me or even on these boards. Collect that data from those people because they are the one's that play with you the most and are people I think you consider to be respected.

Dude I don't care if anyone thinks I suck or am bleed points. All I care about is what the math says. If the math says I bleed points, then I will make corrections but keep in mind as long as we don't know the math we are all shooting from the hip in many spots and needlessly bleeding points becuz the math beats out expert intuition every time. Claiming someone bleeds points without data is just disingenuous fish talk especially when the player you're knocking is getting better results than you in real life and on the app.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
This is what you fail to see. And why you fail in parts of your game. You fail see that anyone can actually see this. It can be seen with many hours of critical play and analyzation of the playing and countless playing against different levels of players and what works in what situations and what doesn't work in others.

Dude you are seriously delusional, like your brain is not working right. There are many spots in this game that no human can see without the math. That is just a fact. I mean jesus, do I have remind you that your "brilliant" mind thought calling with 3 trump from S1-R1 when you have no 2nd rd hand was a losing play? Do I need to remind you that Wolf proved us both wrong on the 3S-R1 QhTh9hAsKs. Expert intuition can only take one so far. Math is the key to getting to the next level. One of your problems is you are too sure of yourself in so many spots when you shouldn't be. Like a form of intellectual arrogance or something. You're not as smart as you think you are and you can't outsmart the math bro.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Your mind can not fathom how anyone can do this with out doing it as how you say it should be done. The proof is in the pudding. The proof is in how I talk about euchre, and and in my play. How did I get to my current play where it stands right now? Am I the luckiest guy in the world to how I approach the game? To know the things I do? Am I lucky by happenstance? There are many things you fail to address that is why you keep going on with the "cool story" motif because you can't counter argue what I said, with out looking a little bit foolishly at those times.

You are a great player but you have this ego problem or something where you are sure about spots no one can be sure about and it's stunting your growth as a player big time. There are levels to this game, and there's a certain level that can only be reached if one takes the time to do the math. There's no way around that no matter what you think. I now have the ability/tools to solve the first round mathematically. In a matter of time I can take our partnership to that next level, a level that probably no euchre partnership has ever reached. But I'm seriously worried that your mind is so deluded and full of itself that you'll refuse to follow my lead and make the appropriate changes. Dude I'm gonna mathematically destroy all the old school rule of thumbs you and everyone else lives by. This should excite you, not offend you.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
This sums it up the best here,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EwcYwax4Oo

I'm sick and tired of "believing". I want to know. And there's only one way to get there. I or we have to do the work. We have to do the samples and follow the math. Yeah it's not sexy and fun but it's neccessary.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
You are going to be waiting a long time then to get to where you think your going then if you solely rely on the data by math only to confirm it. Experiential evidence with enough play and in the many and various scenarios should suffice if people have had enough experience with those should be at face value taken very seriously. It's the take it for what it is, until proven other wise mentality when you don't have solid data yourself. However if you are not able to think, or accept things for which they are you will never grow in regard to using that kind or type of information then.

Jesus false dichotomy christ. It's not one or the other dude. It's not experience/expert intuition vs math. I'm talking about Experience/expert intuition PLUS the math! We both have the experience/honed expert intuition. But why the f**k should we be satisfied with that, why the f**k should we be using loser words like "suffice". WE CAN DO BETTER THAN THAT. If we incorporate the math into our game, plugging up all the leaks our glitchy carbon-based ape brains cannot detect, we can reach a level practically no euchre player has ever reached. You gotta be humble tho and stop believing you can outsmart the math. You gotta recognize you're not that smart. Its ok, nobody is that smart. If we want to reach that next level we need to go wherever the data takes us even if it makes us sad or uncomfortable.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
I can outsmart the person, not the math. I try to induce/make my opponents to make mistakes, I do however say the math can't show you things abstractly. This is where a lot of adjustments based on partners and opponents come into play that the math just can't put a number on or account for. For it is for these situations where math get's thrown out. it can be a guidance but that's only what it can be. Knowing what to, and how to do it comes with playing experience with various types of partners and opponents and knowing what you can and can not do with these said partners and opponents. it will also change some situational calls and passes because of these said factors along with game factors.

This is more false dichotomy weaksauce. There is no Math vs X. That's all in your head. Differing partner or opponent reads would just change the assumptions underpinning the math and create different outputs. It's all unified man. It HAS to be that way. And It IS that way. Just like poker math changes depending on who you are playing with. Same idea.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
You are challenging me, my grasp of euchre and my knowledge and/or perception to grasp it fully or at all on a higher level.

The main point I want to drive home is there is a higher level out there that can only be reached by following the math. Well honed expert intuition can only take one so far.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
When you above reference me as to being a fish, and blowing off my accomplishments(from another post) and my thought out responses with "cool story", is a very telling response. I don't need to break it down, and to highlight what it means. You've done it well enough yourself that everyone and anyone can see the ineptness and lack of, with that very kind of response and failure to understand. I don't know if you have bravado issues because you don't want to look weak in front of everyone here(at ohioeuchre.com) or not the prominent euchre expert. I don't know. I could go on speculating but it serves no purpose. I am not here to degrade you Wes only to try to help you in areas I think you can sew up a little better. Your take of me being the weaker player prevents you from seeing other possibilities. I have said countless times, that with me being out of euchre for 9 years takes a toll, I have said I am not the player I used to be and there may be area's I am still lacking in and need refreshers on to solidify my game. I tell you what, like I've been saying before. Playing these games Friday nights has helped out a lot. I work 12hrs a day, I don't play the 4-8hours of euchre everyday Like I used to back when I was at my peak playing days and all I thought about is euchre. I've been to the top of the euchre mountain. I stood amongst and with the best players in the world. Was I the best? NO I WAS NOT. I know what it takes to get there because I've been there. That's something you can never renounce from me from ever having or take away from me. Does that automatically mean there is nothing else to learn in Euchre? There is always something one can learn to get better at euchre. They day anyone stops and says, that's it. I'm the best is the day they stop getting better.

I do think you're a weaker player than me. Always have, but it's not your fault. You're not obsessed with this game like I am. You're not constantly studying it like I am. Again, you really have no clue who you are talking too. Like you don't really know me that well, you don't know how my sick mind works. That said, I have still learned a lot from you. I have no ego in this regard. I just want to get better and I study other players and take what they do better than me and ignore/reject the things they're not so good at. I've been trying very hard to get you to be a better player from the day I met you. I love teaching, and I think you have the potential to get there but you're so stubborn, if you could just be humble and get out of your own way.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
In nearly everything I have said about this game here and my approach to it and it's considerations has all been about making people better. Not doing stuff that makes them a weaker player. My grasp and understandings and the capability to understand comes with having an analytical mind and being open to possibilities. Plus being able to see things abstractly by repetitive observations.

An analytical mind would not be so hostile to the math. I don't know what your mind is but it's not analytical. It's like your ego/identity is too wrapped up into how you play. It's a strange thing to witness honestly.

Tbolt65
Posts: 786
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Mon May 10, 2021 1:00 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 4:31 am
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 1:01 am
You call hoyle when you have nothing else to call and you don't want to pass. You need to balance your hoyle calls more so your not jumping fence as much vs When you have something you think is better for your hand. For example today playing with IrishWolf. I told him 100 percent Wes would of not of made this call hoyle call.

(Card_A-S) (Card_J-S) (Card_K-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_9-D) thats the roughly what I had. It was some kinda of diamond though. I was in first seat with Dealer turning down diamonds. It may of been the Jack of diamonds not sure. I called Next/hoyle and we make point. Like with this hand. This is a perfect example where you need to be calling Hoyle. You have two trump, with an off-ace doubleton and a void. You are likely to hit your partner especially me knowing how much I bag as your partner and with any good partner for that matter. It's just math that hoyle is is going to hit your partner more often than not from Seat 1 and seat 2 with hoyle being the reverse color of what was turned down. When you have Three trump in something else then you start playing your hand. It won't always work and you will get euchred. However even with that said, there still may be times with having three trump in another suit you still call properly with hoyle or reverse next in it's corresponding positions.
It just all depends. 3 Trump is where I start considering more strongly to jump the fence. If I have only 0 or 1 in Next but two strong trump to jump the fence with. I will make that call. It will highly depend on the situation though.

This is an example where you are WAY too confident in what is right. If we are to have an honest discussion about this we have to admit that it is unknown whether jumping the fence in Spades is worse or better than going with hoyle with 2 low trump + a doubleton off ace. In fact I would postulate that the EVs between these competing choices is very close, so close it will likely not impact one's win% either way. And I've discussed this concept with you before: When the EV or projected EV of two choices are close to equal I will always take the more unconventional line. This makes me less readable/exploitable at zero cost to my team. BTW this is a concept that I'm not sure any euchre expert understands but it comes right from poker. When it costs you nothing always take the more unconventional line to keep people guessing). That's why I jump the fence here. And this unconventional call gains even more value in a tough game where thinking players are trying to trap you into Next calls. You gotta have some curve balls in your game dude. Trust me on that.


Do you know who you are talking to??? LOL I couldn't resist. If you understand that point there which you are making about curve balls, then you have selective reasoning and willfully ignoring the abstracts I'm trying to teach you and inform you on. These curve balls are part of the abstracts in euchre.
-------------------------------------------


But besides that I have no clue why youre bitching and complaining about a spot that barely ever happens where the difference in EVs are razor thin at best.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
I've already done something its you that need to step up to me not the other way around.

Oh your 2006 final 4 run in the World series of euchre. That was eons ago bro. Win a championship or beat my record on the app or STFU. Do something. Your talk does not impress me at all.

Again, you don't read or listen to what I say or have said. I am hyper critical about the little things how ever small because that's takes you to the next level. Squeeze out every point, euchre and march. Making sure your passing to at worst give up 1 point vs giving up two if you call rashly. Plus the option it get's back to your partner to call something. Possible loners and your in a better position to lead to them or help them out on what they have when you have effectively nothing at all. Stop the bleeding of chips. It all adds up.
-----------------------------------------------


Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Ok do me a favor, correction do yourself a favor. You do this privately so no one has to know. You go ask Phil, You ask Pat, You Ask Don/Dlan, You ask Irishwolf, You ask Richard, You ask Lefty. Ask them this question. Ask them who get's euchred more/bleeds unnecessary points, Tbolt65/Edward Or WesakatheLegend. You keep that to yourself and you don't even have to say anything to me or even on these boards. Collect that data from those people because they are the one's that play with you the most and are people I think you consider to be respected.

Dude I don't care if anyone thinks I suck or am bleed points. All I care about is what the math says. If the math says I bleed points, then I will make corrections but keep in mind as long as we don't know the math we are all shooting from the hip in many spots and needlessly bleeding points becuz the math beats out expert intuition every time. Claiming someone bleeds points without data is just disingenuous fish talk especially when the player you're knocking is getting better results than you in real life and on the app.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
This is what you fail to see. And why you fail in parts of your game. You fail see that anyone can actually see this. It can be seen with many hours of critical play and analyzation of the playing and countless playing against different levels of players and what works in what situations and what doesn't work in others.

Dude you are seriously delusional, like your brain is not working right. There are many spots in this game that no human can see without the math. That is just a fact. I mean jesus, do I have remind you that your "brilliant" mind thought calling with 3 trump from S1-R1 when you have no 2nd rd hand was a losing play? Do I need to remind you that Wolf proved us both wrong on the 3S-R1 QhTh9hAsKs. Expert intuition can only take one so far. Math is the key to getting to the next level. One of your problems is you are too sure of yourself in so many spots when you shouldn't be. Like a form of intellectual arrogance or something. You're not as smart as you think you are and you can't outsmart the math bro.

There is a method to the madness. Just because you don't see it don't mean it can't or doesn't exist. It Depends on the situation, depends on what's up. Depends on what's in your hand. I Ordered up The right in spades to the dealer with having Jc, Q-10s k-Qh, with Wolf the other day as my partner. Generally yeah you don't want to be ordering with a lot of hands in tough games, you go set a lot. So much so that it will cost you more in tough games vs games that are weak. That's why you play a certain way vs certain people and opponents. There are mitigating factors that upset the balance and efficiency of your hands from these factors. Hence, the math can be wrong when and if YOUR NOT PLAYING OPTIMALLY.
---------------------------------------------------


Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Your mind can not fathom how anyone can do this with out doing it as how you say it should be done. The proof is in the pudding. The proof is in how I talk about euchre, and and in my play. How did I get to my current play where it stands right now? Am I the luckiest guy in the world to how I approach the game? To know the things I do? Am I lucky by happenstance? There are many things you fail to address that is why you keep going on with the "cool story" motif because you can't counter argue what I said, with out looking a little bit foolishly at those times.

You are a great player but you have this ego problem or something where you are sure about spots no one can be sure about and it's stunting your growth as a player big time. There are levels to this game, and there's a certain level that can only be reached if one takes the time to do the math. There's no way around that no matter what you think. I now have the ability/tools to solve the first round mathematically. In a matter of time I can take our partnership to that next level, a level that probably no euchre partnership has ever reached. But I'm seriously worried that your mind is so deluded and full of itself that you'll refuse to follow my lead and make the appropriate changes. Dude I'm gonna mathematically destroy all the old school rule of thumbs you and everyone else lives by. This should excite you, not offend you.



One day, when you get all your math figured out, your going to see perhaps. Maybe. Just maybe, after being so confident that mathematically it's looks right on paper that it doesn't always play out that way. This is going to take you being in high end games and playing many of them to eventually figure out what I was saying all along and it finally makes sense what Edward was saying. At this point in time you can't see this because you haven't gotten there yet(in your math calculations on all spot and the tough game scenarios that will be needed to see) but I hold out hope for you. I really do. You've come this far.
-----------------------------


Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
This sums it up the best here,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EwcYwax4Oo

I'm sick and tired of "believing". I want to know. And there's only one way to get there. I or we have to do the work. We have to do the samples and follow the math. Yeah it's not sexy and fun but it's neccessary.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
You are going to be waiting a long time then to get to where you think your going then if you solely rely on the data by math only to confirm it. Experiential evidence with enough play and in the many and various scenarios should suffice if people have had enough experience with those should be at face value taken very seriously. It's the take it for what it is, until proven other wise mentality when you don't have solid data yourself. However if you are not able to think, or accept things for which they are you will never grow in regard to using that kind or type of information then.

Jesus false dichotomy christ. It's not one or the other dude. It's not experience/expert intuition vs math. I'm talking about Experience/expert intuition PLUS the math! We both have the experience/honed expert intuition. But why the f**k should we be satisfied with that, why the f**k should we be using loser words like "suffice". WE CAN DO BETTER THAN THAT. If we incorporate the math into our game, plugging up all the leaks our glitchy carbon-based ape brains cannot detect, we can reach a level practically no euchre player has ever reached. You gotta be humble tho and stop believing you can outsmart the math. You gotta recognize you're not that smart. Its ok, nobody is that smart. If we want to reach that next level we need to go wherever the data takes us even if it makes us sad or uncomfortable.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
I can outsmart the person, not the math. I try to induce/make my opponents to make mistakes, I do however say the math can't show you things abstractly. This is where a lot of adjustments based on partners and opponents come into play that the math just can't put a number on or account for. For it is for these situations where math get's thrown out. it can be a guidance but that's only what it can be. Knowing what to, and how to do it comes with playing experience with various types of partners and opponents and knowing what you can and can not do with these said partners and opponents. it will also change some situational calls and passes because of these said factors along with game factors.

This is more false dichotomy weaksauce. There is no Math vs X. That's all in your head. Differing partner or opponent reads would just change the assumptions underpinning the math and create different outputs. It's all unified man. It HAS to be that way. And It IS that way. Just like poker math changes depending on who you are playing with. Same idea.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
You are challenging me, my grasp of euchre and my knowledge and/or perception to grasp it fully or at all on a higher level.


I've addressed this above somewhere so I'm not rehashing.


-------------------------------------


The main point I want to drive home is there is a higher level out there that can only be reached by following the math. Well honed expert intuition can only take one so far.

Intuition is like IrishWolf donating from 3rd seat with people he knows Protects from Seat 1. He did this to me one time at a 5-1 Score. I had Right Queen and hearts where turned up. That's besides the point, he was looking at his hand and was going by the feel and he makes this play every so often. Not a whole lot mind you. From what I've seen. That's what intuition looks like. That's some of the necessary gambles you have to take from time to time.

I have spent countless hours in real game situations with weak, strong and excellent players. I've been on my kitchen table and on my bed as well dealing out cards and seeing how things play out. I have seen many scenarios. The best play and correct play is often different in various scenarios. It is recognizing these scenarios either through The amount of play that takes one to get to that point or mathematically having enough hands tested out and eventual play to prove to oneself what is close to or in actuality being optimal. In a lot of scenarios it's going to be negligible. So in weaker games it really doesn't matter, but it might matter however slight in really tough games. So expert play and understanding can give you the vision needed if the time has been put in to see how this hands play out and the ability to see what are the differences. With knowing these differences you can be more adaptable in your play in the multitude of situations that are found in euchre. It's all about the situation. What's the best play you can do to execute the desired outcome.

------------------------------------



Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
When you above reference me as to being a fish, and blowing off my accomplishments(from another post) and my thought out responses with "cool story", is a very telling response. I don't need to break it down, and to highlight what it means. You've done it well enough yourself that everyone and anyone can see the ineptness and lack of, with that very kind of response and failure to understand. I don't know if you have bravado issues because you don't want to look weak in front of everyone here(at ohioeuchre.com) or not the prominent euchre expert. I don't know. I could go on speculating but it serves no purpose. I am not here to degrade you Wes only to try to help you in areas I think you can sew up a little better. Your take of me being the weaker player prevents you from seeing other possibilities. I have said countless times, that with me being out of euchre for 9 years takes a toll, I have said I am not the player I used to be and there may be area's I am still lacking in and need refreshers on to solidify my game. I tell you what, like I've been saying before. Playing these games Friday nights has helped out a lot. I work 12hrs a day, I don't play the 4-8hours of euchre everyday Like I used to back when I was at my peak playing days and all I thought about is euchre. I've been to the top of the euchre mountain. I stood amongst and with the best players in the world. Was I the best? NO I WAS NOT. I know what it takes to get there because I've been there. That's something you can never renounce from me from ever having or take away from me. Does that automatically mean there is nothing else to learn in Euchre? There is always something one can learn to get better at euchre. They day anyone stops and says, that's it. I'm the best is the day they stop getting better.

I do think you're a weaker player than me. Always have, but it's not your fault. You're not obsessed with this game like I am. You're not constantly studying it like I am. Again, you really have no clue who you are talking too. Like you don't really know me that well, you don't know how my sick mind works. That said, I have still learned a lot from you. I have no ego in this regard. I just want to get better and I study other players and take what they do better than me and ignore/reject the things they're not so good at. I've been trying very hard to get you to be a better player from the day I met you. I love teaching, and I think you have the potential to get there but you're so stubborn, if you could just be humble and get out of your own way.

Chuckling inside, and then releasing a large sigh. Yeah right now you are right(about the obsessiveness and studying). I work 12hours a day. How ever that wasn't always the case. You have no idea the amount of hours, time, game play and testing I have done. When I say testing, I mean seeing scenarios and hands play out but not mathematically coming to conclusions. It seems like I've been on trial because the prosecution refuses to see/ take the testimony of an Expert witness and disagree's how this Expert has been able to come to the conclusions he has been speaking about on the stand under oath. Whats the point of having an Expert Witness and not consider what they have to say?

--------------------------



Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
In nearly everything I have said about this game here and my approach to it and it's considerations has all been about making people better. Not doing stuff that makes them a weaker player. My grasp and understandings and the capability to understand comes with having an analytical mind and being open to possibilities. Plus being able to see things abstractly by repetitive observations.

An analytical mind would not be so hostile to the math. I don't know what your mind is but it's not analytical. It's like your ego/identity is too wrapped up into how you play. It's a strange thing to witness honestly.


Once you start to be hyper critical about the little things and try to make your game more airtight you will see, you will see. That' process is ever changing though, with new and different variables introduced.

Failure to comprehend or understand based on biased or egotistical means will always blind a person to seeing a deeper meaning.

I am honest, and truthful about my personal assessment of myself(which you think I am too hard on myself at times) That right there should tell you how I am in my assessment and ability to judge things. If I think I'm not up to snuff or I've made mistakes and you don't thinks so? That should tell you all you need to know about how critical and honest I am. You should then understand when I am critical of others in certain area's it is for good reason. Not because of ego, but because it's True. My ability to see flaws or excellence in MY game or in ANYONE Else's game is not hampered by my ego What so ever!!!

Tbolt65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1521
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon May 10, 2021 5:08 am

Tbolt65 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:00 am
Do you know who you are talking to??? LOL I couldn't resist. If you understand that point there which you are making about curve balls, then you have selective reasoning and willfully ignoring the abstracts I'm trying to teach you and inform you on. These curve balls are part of the abstracts in euchre.
No, there is nothing selective about that. Everything I do is extremely calculated. Again, this concept is important so I'll repeat it: In ANY gambling game where you are playing against other people and one has a choice between two plays that are indiscernible/very close in EV, one should ALWAYS choose the more unconventional play. IOW when it costs you nothing, always choose the play that makes you more unreadable. This is a real concept, and it exists in euchre too. I don't know if there is any other expert player out there that is aware of this concept and applies it, maybe I'm the only one (I doubt it) but it's a real thing.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:00 am
Again, you don't read or listen to what I say or have said. I am hyper critical about the little things how ever small because that's takes you to the next level. Squeeze out every point, euchre and march. Making sure your passing to at worst give up 1 point vs giving up two if you call rashly. Plus the option it get's back to your partner to call something. Possible loners and your in a better position to lead to them or help them out on what they have when you have effectively nothing at all. Stop the bleeding of chips. It all adds up.
Dude, there's nothing you've said I haven't listened too, but you're not making any deep points. It's just a bunch of platitudes that every strong player already knows. Take your thoughts to the beginning players forum.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
There is a method to the madness. Just because you don't see it don't mean it can't or doesn't exist. It Depends on the situation, depends on what's up. Depends on what's in your hand. I Ordered up The right in spades to the dealer with having Jc, Q-10s k-Qh, with Wolf the other day as my partner. Generally yeah you don't want to be ordering with a lot of hands in tough games, you go set a lot. So much so that it will cost you more in tough games vs games that are weak. That's why you play a certain way vs certain people and opponents. There are mitigating factors that upset the balance and efficiency of your hands from these factors. Hence, the math can be wrong when and if YOUR NOT PLAYING OPTIMALLY.
If one has done the work properly the math won't be wrong, but yeah players can still make mistakes. Again, everything you have said is just a bunch of shallow platitudes that every strong player already knows.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
One day, when you get all your math figured out, your going to see perhaps. Maybe. Just maybe, after being so confident that mathematically it's looks right on paper that it doesn't always play out that way. This is going to take you being in high end games and playing many of them to eventually figure out what I was saying all along and it finally makes sense what Edward was saying. At this point in time you can't see this because you haven't gotten there yet(in your math calculations on all spot and the tough game scenarios that will be needed to see) but I hold out hope for you. I really do. You've come this far.
You're extremely deluded man. You're WAY too confident for someone who doesn't know the math himself. Your beautiful mind has already been proven wrong by the math in this forum at least twice, and that didn't humble you at all. That's amazing to me. We get it. You don't like my playing style. But my approach to the game wins championships and breaks records on the app. Your approach has accomplished nothing since I've met you. Even tho I've been working on improving YOUR GAME ever since I met you.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Intuition is like IrishWolf donating from 3rd seat with people he knows Protects from Seat 1. He did this to me one time at a 5-1 Score. I had Right Queen and hearts where turned up. That's besides the point, he was looking at his hand and was going by the feel and he makes this play every so often. Not a whole lot mind you. From what I've seen. That's what intuition looks like. That's some of the necessary gambles you have to take from time to time.


I don't agree with that play if S1 is a strong player. You talk about burning points, but a S3 donate with a strong player in S1 is gonna burn tons of points in the long run. If a player like me is in S1 that's just a straight up bad play. Using poker jargon it's lighting money on fire.

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
I have spent countless hours in real game situations with weak, strong and excellent players. I've been on my kitchen table and on my bed as well dealing out cards and seeing how things play out. I have seen many scenarios. The best play and correct play is often different in various scenarios. It is recognizing these scenarios either through The amount of play that takes one to get to that point or mathematically having enough hands tested out and eventual play to prove to oneself what is close to or in actuality being optimal. In a lot of scenarios it's going to be negligible. So in weaker games it really doesn't matter, but it might matter however slight in really tough games. So expert play and understanding can give you the vision needed if the time has been put in to see how this hands play out and the ability to see what are the differences. With knowing these differences you can be more adaptable in your play in the multitude of situations that are found in euchre. It's all about the situation. What's the best play you can do to execute the desired outcome.
There's nothing you're saying here that I don't already know. This adds nothing to the discussion. We all know the correct play is often different in various scenarios. This is more beginner forum stuff.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Chuckling inside, and then releasing a large sigh. Yeah right now you are right(about the obsessiveness and studying). I work 12hours a day. How ever that wasn't always the case. You have no idea the amount of hours, time, game play and testing I have done. When I say testing, I mean seeing scenarios and hands play out but not mathematically coming to conclusions. It seems like I've been on trial because the prosecution refuses to see/ take the testimony of an Expert witness and disagree's how this Expert has been able to come to the conclusions he has been speaking about on the stand under oath. Whats the point of having an Expert Witness and not consider what they have to say?
Your testimony has no value to another expert. It's just a bunch of banal platitudes that every expert already knows. The fact that you are dismissive of the math also suggests you are irrational and not a credible witness.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Once you start to be hyper critical about the little things and try to make your game more airtight you will see, you will see. That' process is ever changing though, with new and different variables introduced.


More banal platitudes. Every expert, pretty much by definition is hyper critical about the little things and trying to make their game as airtight as possible. Again, do you know who you are talking to? Do you think I am grinding away testing hands on the kitchen table for the fun of it?!?! Do you think I am constantly testing out different hypotheses on the app for the fun of it?

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Failure to comprehend or understand based on biased or egotistical means will always blind a person to seeing a deeper meaning.


You're the one who has the ego problem. You're the one who thinks they know more than they really know. You're the one who keeps poasting platitude after platitude as if they're new ideas or some kind of important wisdom when every expert already knows what you have to say. You're the one whose ego is so inflated you even think you can outsmart the math.

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
I am honest, and truthful about my personal assessment of myself(which you think I am too hard on myself at times) That right there should tell you how I am in my assessment and ability to judge things. If I think I'm not up to snuff or I've made mistakes and you don't thinks so? That should tell you all you need to know about how critical and honest I am. You should then understand when I am critical of others in certain area's it is for good reason. Not because of ego, but because it's True. My ability to see flaws or excellence in MY game or in ANYONE Else's game is not hampered by my ego What so ever!!!

Tbolt65
Edward
Look I'm tired of this back and forth. It's exhausting and getting no where. You're not adding anything to the discussion that I don't already know. And I get it dude. I get that you don't like my approach to the game. And you already know I don't like your approach to the game. Too many fish tendencies imo. So there's no reason to continue on with this. I'll just keep repeating myself: win a championship/break my records on the app, do something instead of talk talk talk. The difference between me and you is when I see a player getting better results than me I don't assume I'm better than them. I study them and try to figure out why they are getting better results. I try to find the good things they are doing that I am not.

Tbolt65
Posts: 786
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Mon May 10, 2021 5:55 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:08 am
Tbolt65 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:00 am
Do you know who you are talking to??? LOL I couldn't resist. If you understand that point there which you are making about curve balls, then you have selective reasoning and willfully ignoring the abstracts I'm trying to teach you and inform you on. These curve balls are part of the abstracts in euchre.
No, there is nothing selective about that. Everything I do is extremely calculated. Again, this concept is important so I'll repeat it: In ANY gambling game where you are playing against other people and one has a choice between two plays that are indiscernible/very close in EV, one should ALWAYS choose the more unconventional play. IOW when it costs you nothing, always choose the play that makes you more unreadable. This is a real concept, and it exists in euchre too. I don't know if there is any other expert player out there that is aware of this concept and applies it, maybe I'm the only one (I doubt it) but it's a real thing.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:00 am
Again, you don't read or listen to what I say or have said. I am hyper critical about the little things how ever small because that's takes you to the next level. Squeeze out every point, euchre and march. Making sure your passing to at worst give up 1 point vs giving up two if you call rashly. Plus the option it get's back to your partner to call something. Possible loners and your in a better position to lead to them or help them out on what they have when you have effectively nothing at all. Stop the bleeding of chips. It all adds up.
Dude, there's nothing you've said I haven't listened too, but you're not making any deep points. It's just a bunch of platitudes that every strong player already knows. Take your thoughts to the beginning players forum.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
There is a method to the madness. Just because you don't see it don't mean it can't or doesn't exist. It Depends on the situation, depends on what's up. Depends on what's in your hand. I Ordered up The right in spades to the dealer with having Jc, Q-10s k-Qh, with Wolf the other day as my partner. Generally yeah you don't want to be ordering with a lot of hands in tough games, you go set a lot. So much so that it will cost you more in tough games vs games that are weak. That's why you play a certain way vs certain people and opponents. There are mitigating factors that upset the balance and efficiency of your hands from these factors. Hence, the math can be wrong when and if YOUR NOT PLAYING OPTIMALLY.
If one has done the work properly the math won't be wrong, but yeah players can still make mistakes. Again, everything you have said is just a bunch of shallow platitudes that every strong player already knows.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
One day, when you get all your math figured out, your going to see perhaps. Maybe. Just maybe, after being so confident that mathematically it's looks right on paper that it doesn't always play out that way. This is going to take you being in high end games and playing many of them to eventually figure out what I was saying all along and it finally makes sense what Edward was saying. At this point in time you can't see this because you haven't gotten there yet(in your math calculations on all spot and the tough game scenarios that will be needed to see) but I hold out hope for you. I really do. You've come this far.
You're extremely deluded man. You're WAY too confident for someone who doesn't know the math himself. Your beautiful mind has already been proven wrong by the math in this forum at least twice, and that didn't humble you at all. That's amazing to me. We get it. You don't like my playing style. But my approach to the game wins championships and breaks records on the app. Your approach has accomplished nothing since I've met you. Even tho I've been working on improving YOUR GAME ever since I met you.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Intuition is like IrishWolf donating from 3rd seat with people he knows Protects from Seat 1. He did this to me one time at a 5-1 Score. I had Right Queen and hearts where turned up. That's besides the point, he was looking at his hand and was going by the feel and he makes this play every so often. Not a whole lot mind you. From what I've seen. That's what intuition looks like. That's some of the necessary gambles you have to take from time to time.


I don't agree with that play if S1 is a strong player. You talk about burning points, but a S3 donate with a strong player in S1 is gonna burn tons of points in the long run. If a player like me is in S1 that's just a straight up bad play. Using poker jargon it's lighting money on fire.

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
I have spent countless hours in real game situations with weak, strong and excellent players. I've been on my kitchen table and on my bed as well dealing out cards and seeing how things play out. I have seen many scenarios. The best play and correct play is often different in various scenarios. It is recognizing these scenarios either through The amount of play that takes one to get to that point or mathematically having enough hands tested out and eventual play to prove to oneself what is close to or in actuality being optimal. In a lot of scenarios it's going to be negligible. So in weaker games it really doesn't matter, but it might matter however slight in really tough games. So expert play and understanding can give you the vision needed if the time has been put in to see how this hands play out and the ability to see what are the differences. With knowing these differences you can be more adaptable in your play in the multitude of situations that are found in euchre. It's all about the situation. What's the best play you can do to execute the desired outcome.
There's nothing you're saying here that I don't already know. This adds nothing to the discussion. We all know the correct play is often different in various scenarios. This is more beginner forum stuff.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Chuckling inside, and then releasing a large sigh. Yeah right now you are right(about the obsessiveness and studying). I work 12hours a day. How ever that wasn't always the case. You have no idea the amount of hours, time, game play and testing I have done. When I say testing, I mean seeing scenarios and hands play out but not mathematically coming to conclusions. It seems like I've been on trial because the prosecution refuses to see/ take the testimony of an Expert witness and disagree's how this Expert has been able to come to the conclusions he has been speaking about on the stand under oath. Whats the point of having an Expert Witness and not consider what they have to say?
Your testimony has no value to another expert. It's just a bunch of banal platitudes that every expert already knows. The fact that you are dismissive of the math also suggests you are irrational and not a credible witness.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Once you start to be hyper critical about the little things and try to make your game more airtight you will see, you will see. That' process is ever changing though, with new and different variables introduced.


More banal platitudes. Every expert, pretty much by definition is hyper critical about the little things and trying to make their game as airtight as possible. Again, do you know who you are talking to? Do you think I am grinding away testing hands on the kitchen table for the fun of it?!?! Do you think I am constantly testing out different hypotheses on the app for the fun of it?

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Failure to comprehend or understand based on biased or egotistical means will always blind a person to seeing a deeper meaning.


You're the one who has the ego problem. You're the one who thinks they know more than they really know. You're the one who keeps poasting platitude after platitude as if they're new ideas or some kind of important wisdom when every expert already knows what you have to say. You're the one whose ego is so inflated you even think you can outsmart the math.

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
I am honest, and truthful about my personal assessment of myself(which you think I am too hard on myself at times) That right there should tell you how I am in my assessment and ability to judge things. If I think I'm not up to snuff or I've made mistakes and you don't thinks so? That should tell you all you need to know about how critical and honest I am. You should then understand when I am critical of others in certain area's it is for good reason. Not because of ego, but because it's True. My ability to see flaws or excellence in MY game or in ANYONE Else's game is not hampered by my ego What so ever!!!

Tbolt65
Edward
Look I'm tired of this back and forth. It's exhausting and getting no where. You're not adding anything to the discussion that I don't already know. And I get it dude. I get that you don't like my approach to the game. And you already know I don't like your approach to the game. Too many fish tendencies imo. So there's no reason to continue on with this. I'll just keep repeating myself: win a championship/break my records on the app, do something instead of talk talk talk. The difference between me and you is when I see a player getting better results than me I don't assume I'm better than them. I study them and try to figure out why they are getting better results. I try to find the good things they are doing that I am not.

I am dismissing the math because the math can't show you everything. It only takes you so far. The adjustments in the game you can't qualify or quantify by math alone. Like I have said there are other mitigating circumstances and factors that go along. Im not completely throwing math out the door. I'm saying math wont get you all the way alone.


You clearly are unfamiliar what I have been speaking about. Because your brain doesn't operate in the way mine or even Irishwolf does. So you are not seeing things that we are seeing. You are unable to conceptualize or lack the desire to do so. To see what we are getting at. There is good information to be had but it doesnt fit your idea of how one should get there about it.



You should be studying why you give up too many euchres. When you understand this you wil start to make your game better.

Tbolt65
Edward

P.S. Your lack understanding is self evident especially with the above post. Its is because your realisations and math havent gotten you to a place to see what I am saying. Once you finally get the math and situations to catch up. Your experience will start to show you what I have been saying.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1521
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon May 10, 2021 6:54 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:55 pm

I am dismissing the math because the math can't show you everything. It only takes you so far. The adjustments in the game you can't qualify or quantify by math alone. Like I have said there are other mitigating circumstances and factors that go along. Im not completely throwing math out the door. I'm saying math wont get you all the way alone.
Dude you're not saying anything that everyone doesn't already know. We ALL agree that "the math can't show you everything/get you all the way alone". Math without experience/intuition is useless. The point is, and this point is indisputable, at this point in our euchre "careers" where we have the experience the honed expert intuition, we can't get to another level without the math. The math is the key to our growth from this point on. I've said this many times and you seem to not grasp how important this is: We NOW have the tools/ability to mathematically solve the first round. Imagine if we did that. How cool that would be. We just have to grind away and do the work.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:55 pm
You clearly are unfamiliar what I have been speaking about. Because your brain doesn't operate in the way mine or even Irishwolf does. So you are not seeing things that we are seeing. You are unable to conceptualize or lack the desire to do so. To see what we are getting at. There is good information to be had but it doesnt fit your idea of how one should get there about it.
There's nothing you've said in this thread that I don't already know.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:55 pm
You should be studying why you give up too many euchres. When you understand this you wil start to make your game better.

Tbolt65
Edward
I don't care about the euchres. That's fish talk. All that matters is making the most +EV decisions possible (and the appropriate -EV decisions to manage variance). Here's something that should blow your mind: The reason why I won that championship is becuz I'm the only player in the room that doesn't care about euchres. I only care about making the correct play becuz I know that's all that matters. The fact that the player with BY FAR the most euchres in the tournament won the whole f**king thing should give you pause but it never will becuz you still got too much dawn/patty in you. That fish part of you I've been trying to nicely destroy ever since I met you. I'm the big dog in the yard bro and I always will be. You should be studying me.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:55 pm
P.S. Your lack understanding is self evident especially with the above post. Its is because your realisations and math havent gotten you to a place to see what I am saying. Once you finally get the math and situations to catch up. Your experience will start to show you what I have been saying.
Dude I'm already at "your place". It bores me. I'm going to another place now. You can stay where you're at. No skin off my back.

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