Poll - You sit in 3rd seat. Opponents turned up a jack

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Poll - You sit in 3rd seat. Opponents turned up a jack

Do you order the Jack.
2
40%
Pass
3
60%
 
Total votes: 5

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Dlan
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Poll - You sit in 3rd seat. Opponents turned up a jack

Post by Dlan » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:10 pm

You and your partner are both experienced players. You are in a major tournament playing against two veteran players. You are one game away from taking home the money.

The score is 7 – 9 your lead. Your opponents deal and just turned up the Jack of Clubs.

The same question as before except this time you sit in third seat holding

(Card_9-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_Q-C)

Your partner passes as does second seat

What do you do and why.



Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:21 pm

Dlan wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:10 pm
You and your partner are both experienced players. You are in a major tournament playing against two veteran players. You are one game away from taking home the money.

The score is 7 – 9 your lead. Your opponents deal and just turned up the Jack of Clubs.

The same question as before except this time you sit in third seat holding

(Card_9-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_J-C)

Your partner passes as does second seat

What do you do and why.
I'm assuming you meant to give yourself:

(Card_9-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_J-S)

If your partner is an experienced player then he's never passing in the 1 seat up 9-7 without having a loner stopped. Given what you have and the exposed dealer upcard, this must mean your partner has

(Card_A-C) (Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C)

in his hand.

You should order up and march to an easy victory.

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Dlan
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Post by Dlan » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:54 pm

Yes I messed up. I meant to say I had the Queen of Clubs, not the Jack of Clubs.

I have changed the poll to reflect this.

Would this change your answer?

RedDuke
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Post by RedDuke » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:10 pm

Once again, your partner wouldn't pass unless he can stop a lone. That means he's got the left and the ace or the king. So between the two of you, you've got at least five trump.

This seems like it's worth calling to me.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:31 pm

Dlan wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:54 pm
Yes I messed up. I meant to say I had the Queen of Clubs, not the Jack of Clubs.

I have changed the poll to reflect this.

Would this change your answer?
This is definitely a much more interesting scenario becuz now you can go set. That said there's still a great chance you can make it given that your partner has to have a guarded left in this spot.

One of the problems with passing in this spot is if the dealer passes, you basically have no help in the 2nd round. We already know that your partner has the

(Card_J-S)

in his hand so he is most likely calling next and when he does that you essentially have a dead hand. Becuz of this problem, your team is probably significantly more likely to go set in the 2nd round than if you order it up in the first round. That's why I would just go for it in the first round and hope for the best. Plus if this call blows up in your face it's not the end of the world. Your team still gets the deal at 9-9, as around a 2-1 favorite to win the game.

irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:47 pm

Okay, some things already said (or assumed) 3rd seat has 9c 10c Qc 9 & 10D. And running with the previous discussion the eldest has Left guarded (let's for kicks) assume he has L & Ks because 3rd seat does not know except that his partner is experienced and must know with Jc up score 9 to 7 he has to donate but did not.

So this leaves the Ac unknown, let's give that to the Dealer and he now holds Jc Ac. For me I would not order even though my hand is dead in next. I know my partner is not going to call for me if the dealer turns it down. No need to be that aggressive. I am confident that if I pass, my partner's experience, he will call something to even take a euchre to avoid giving a loner in green (a reverse donate - call something as it is the same as ordering the Jc). So if you would order up the Jc without a sure stopper, why not call something to avoid a loner??

I would not order for the reason that the opponents are also experienced and the dealer might be thinking, "We need four points so my partner Passed so I could go alone." But I don't have a loner, or if he held all four aces, or even the naked Jc he would it up. We have a possible euchre if the eldest has the Left guarded. Thus, you see it can also be a two edge sword. If I order and the dealer has the Jc Ac and eldest leads the Left, (surely he would if 3rd ordered) the dealer has two tricks and wiped out all but one trump that 3rd seat has. All it takes is for a lead of diamonds and the opponents have the AD or any number of other combinations for a euchre.

I am going to have confidence the dealer is not going to turn down a bower. If he has 2 side aces and no other trump is will pick it up. You have to consider what the dealer is likely to do as well.


Irishwolf

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:06 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:47 pm
I know my partner is not going to call for me if the dealer turns it down. No need to be that aggressive. I am confident that if I pass, my partner's experience, he will call something to even take a euchre to avoid giving a loner in green (a reverse donate - call something as it is the same as ordering the Jc). So if you would order up the Jc without a sure stopper, why not call something to avoid a loner??
In case you're wondering here is the convention for this spot:

If you are up 9-x, where x = 7 or lower, you should NEVER pass from seat 1, 2nd round, if you don't block all loners. You must force a call. Even if you have

(Card_K-C) (Card_K-D) (Card_K-S) (Card_K-H) (Card_9-H)

After the dealer turned down a spade (For the sake of discussion ignore the fact that you should've donated to begin with), you still need to force a call, in fact, it's even more imperative you call with this horrible holding given that the probability of a 2 seat loner being out is significantly higher when you hold these garbage cards.

The idea is pretty simple. This convention is just another version of donating. If you're up 9-6, you make sure a hail mary 2nd rd loner never beats you, or if youre up 9-0, why even given them a chance at a 4 point play.

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