COOLEST MOVE OF THE NIGHT???

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irishwolf
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

COOLEST MOVE OF THE NIGHT???

Unread post by irishwolf » Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:05 pm

GAME 7, Would you do this?

S2 ASSISTS, KC UP CARD, CLUBS IS TRUMP
THIS IS A COOL MOVE ON 2ND TRK LEAD. S2 GETS EUCHRED

S1 JH JS TS QS KS
S2 9D JC AS 9D QC
S3 AH TC 9C KD AD
D4 9H KC TH QD KH

Good Leads beats good cards?

Sometimes you just have to BRING IT!



Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:53 am

For those who want to see the play.

Image

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

Richardb02
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Location: Florida

Unread post by Richardb02 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:38 pm

Great hand to post! Thank you.

What are the principles of playing against a R1S2 order?

irishwolf
Posts: 1273
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:43 pm

RICHARD: Not sure there is any specific principle(s) except a couple, perhaps.

Notice the euchre would have also resulted if S1 leads the Left to trick 1. S2 can't get out of his trap. And the same with S3 winning the Heart trick and leading trump.

So what do those two things have in COMMON?

1.) S2 orders thin, two trumps with or without an ace;

2.) The dealer only has one trump (so statistically, that is either 23.4% with 4 unkn trumps and 35% of only 3 unkn). The difference is what trump(s) are buried and with S1 & S3. Both MUST occur simultaneously.

Then for the defenders:

3.) One or two off suit aces. It can also can work with two trumps & a triplet off suit headed by an Ace. Sometimes you don't even need two trumps.

4.) S2 plays SECOND HAND LOW to the first trick when trump is not led by S1. So you see (which most don't) that 2nd hand low is a double edge sword. Becomes somewhat, or almost, that it is a toss up when S2 assists that the dealer will NOT win the trick. Often overlooked.

If S1 has two trumps and two aces, same can also occur. There are other combinations as well but Key is Dealer having one trump, especially if it is a singleton Ace or King. So you see, the set up is in the minority of the time.

This seldom works if S2 has three trumps or the dealer has two trumps and S2 has two. You can easily see this is in the minority low percentage of pulling it off. Even works well with S2 having both bowers or any other combination of two trumps as long as opponents can trump his off suit ace.

The other thing is, constantly leading trump when S2 assists only sometimes works but many times, your (S1) are assisting the Maker of trump to get a March. You have to pick your time & place of leading trump on Defense. So in this hand, you now have one trick in. They are not going to make a march. Sometimes you also fool the maker into imaging many things.

You have an ace, two trumps, what the H E L L! Lead trump and see what happens! And if the stars and planets are aligned with you, bring it. If it does not work, hope your partner does not yell at you, lol.

I have studied this one, considerably, and just my opinion!

What are the principles of playing against a R1S2 order?

Irishwolf

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:55 pm

Good playing by all. Its a good euchre by North/south. Seat 2 play off or trump in results in a euchre either way with the smart playing of North/south.

Tbolt65
Edward

Richardb02
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Location: Florida

Unread post by Richardb02 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:30 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:43 pm
RICHARD: Not sure there is any specific principle(s) except a couple, perhaps.

Notice the euchre would have also resulted if S1 leads the Left to trick 1. S2 can't get out of his trap. And the same with S3 winning the Heart trick and leading trump.

So what do those two things have in COMMON?

1.) S2 orders thin, two trumps with or without an ace;

2.) The dealer only has one trump (so statistically, that is either 23.4% with 4 unkn trumps and 35% of only 3 unkn). The difference is what trump(s) are buried and with S1 & S3. Both MUST occur simultaneously.

Then for the defenders:

3.) One or two off suit aces. It can also can work with two trumps & a triplet off suit headed by an Ace. Sometimes you don't even need two trumps.

4.) S2 plays SECOND HAND LOW to the first trick when trump is not led by S1. So you see (which most don't) that 2nd hand low is a double edge sword. Becomes somewhat, or almost, that it is a toss up when S2 assists that the dealer will NOT win the trick. Often overlooked.

If S1 has two trumps and two aces, same can also occur. There are other combinations as well but Key is Dealer having one trump, especially if it is a singleton Ace or King. So you see, the set up is in the minority of the time.

This seldom works if S2 has three trumps or the dealer has two trumps and S2 has two. You can easily see this is in the minority low percentage of pulling it off. Even works well with S2 having both bowers or any other combination of two trumps as long as opponents can trump his off suit ace.

The other thing is, constantly leading trump when S2 assists only sometimes works but many times, your (S1) are assisting the Maker of trump to get a March. You have to pick your time & place of leading trump on Defense. So in this hand, you now have one trick in. They are not going to make a march. Sometimes you also fool the maker into imaging many things.

You have an ace, two trumps, what the H E L L! Lead trump and see what happens! And if the stars and planets are aligned with you, bring it. If it does not work, hope your partner does not yell at you, lol.

I have studied this one, considerably, and just my opinion!

What are the principles of playing against a R1S2 order?

Irishwolf
Thanks for the guidance. Every detail is clear, concise & important.

I think that you nailed my goal of a more general principle with this statement:

"You have an ace, two trumps, what the H E L L! Lead trump and see what happens! And if the stars and planets are aligned with you, bring it. If it does not work, hope your partner does not yell at you, lol."

Vs. a R1S2 order, if S1 has 2 trump and an Ace, lead trump. Same for S3. Otherwise fish for another winning trick.

I noted that S1 leading the unguarded left would have worked. But I think S1's green lead (give your partner a chance) would create more opportunities, when S1 only has one trump.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1522
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:30 am

irishwolf wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:43 pm
RICHARD: Not sure there is any specific principle(s) except a couple, perhaps.

Notice the euchre would have also resulted if S1 leads the Left to trick 1. S2 can't get out of his trap. And the same with S3 winning the Heart trick and leading trump.
For the record I was S1, and I would've led trump in this spot if I had no voids. My logic being: my unguarded Left is pretty useless but at least if I lead trump I can take out 2 enemy trump with 1 lead and maybe that will help my P if he has an off ace or 2. And if that's the dealer's only trump, the maker could be in trouble. Since I had a void there was a chance my lone Left could do something so I decided to lead offsuit. I'm not saying this is correct play on my part. Just letting you know what I'm thinking in this spot. If there's anything you don't like let me know.
irishwolf wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:43 pm
So what do those two things have in COMMON?

1.) S2 orders thin, two trumps with or without an ace;

2.) The dealer only has one trump (so statistically, that is either 23.4% with 4 unkn trumps and 35% of only 3 unkn). The difference is what trump(s) are buried and with S1 & S3. Both MUST occur simultaneously.
Yep that's the crux of the play, every time S3's trump lead takes out S4's only trump, the maker can be in trouble.
irishwolf wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:43 pm
Then for the defenders:

3.) One or two off suit aces. It can also can work with two trumps & a triplet off suit headed by an Ace. Sometimes you don't even need two trumps.

4.) S2 plays SECOND HAND LOW to the first trick when trump is not led by S1. So you see (which most don't) that 2nd hand low is a double edge sword. Becomes somewhat, or almost, that it is a toss up when S2 assists that the dealer will NOT win the trick. Often overlooked.

If S1 has two trumps and two aces, same can also occur. There are other combinations as well but Key is Dealer having one trump, especially if it is a singleton Ace or King. So you see, the set up is in the minority of the time.
I would say the primary reason most people aren't aware of the potency of this play is cuz 99% of the euchre player pool does not play for the euchre on defense. They just go through the motions waiting for the Next hand. But the secondary reason most players aren't aware of this play is cuz its success rate is low in the absolute sense even tho it's the relative best play. Just guessing here but I think it's a decent approximation: Say leading trump in this spot gets a euchre 10% of the time, but not leading trump gets a euchre 5%. Most human brains will never pick up on that difference. That's what's basically going on here.
irishwolf wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:43 pm
This seldom works if S2 has three trumps or the dealer has two trumps and S2 has two. You can easily see this is in the minority low percentage of pulling it off. Even works well with S2 having both bowers or any other combination of two trumps as long as opponents can trump his off suit ace.
Yep. Every time the dealer has 2 trump we're in "Sigh" mode, but no biggie, they still can't get 2 at least.
irishwolf wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:43 pm
The other thing is, constantly leading trump when S2 assists only sometimes works but many times, your (S1) are assisting the Maker of trump to get a March. You have to pick your time & place of leading trump on Defense. So in this hand, you now have one trick in. They are not going to make a march. Sometimes you also fool the maker into imaging many things.
Another factor to this play: Most of the time we euchre the maker it will be becuz he gets overtrumped somewhere during the hand. Notice you are the one in the "overtrump" position but you have no hope of overtrumping the maker with your two lowest trump. Since this euchre pathway is closed this gives you even more impetus to lead trump, attacking the maker's greatest asset: the fact that he has a P with a guaranteed trump + a void the vast majority of time.
irishwolf wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:43 pm
I have studied this one, considerably, and just my opinion!
I think it's too modest to say "just my opinion" here. I trust your studying plus I've thought about this spot a lot and reached the same conclusion. It may be a bit overboard to say this but oh well here it goes: leading trump in this spot with S3's hand is the unequivocal best play here.

Was this the coolest hand of the night. Well I've looked at every hand and I don't see a better candidate but part of me wishes it wasn't that cool. That same part that wishes players knew how to play better on defense. But since I think players will generally play bad on defense forever this play will probably always be super cool. :)

irishwolf
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:12 pm

Perhaps, one can sum this up by saying this which also applies to, EUCHRE:

“Experience without theory is blind, but theory without experience is mere intellectual play.”
— Immanuel Kant

~IRISHWOLF

Tbolt65
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Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:16 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:12 pm
Perhaps, one can sum this up by saying this which also applies to, EUCHRE:

“Experience without theory is blind, but theory without experience is mere intellectual play.”
— Immanuel Kant

~IRISHWOLF

So very true.

Tbolt65
Edward

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LeftyK
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Unread post by LeftyK » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:25 pm

If that was game 7 then I was in S3 and Wes was my P b/c that was the only game he and I were partners (I won 6 of 7 games that Monday) :) my gut said s2 call was bs and so I led the lowly trump to try to make my other green ace good.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:02 pm

LeftyK wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:25 pm
If that was game 7 then I was in S3 and Wes was my P b/c that was the only game he and I were partners (I won 6 of 7 games that Monday) :) my gut said s2 call was bs and so I led the lowly trump to try to make my other green ace good.
This was from the 4/9 Friday game. You weren't in that one.

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