OE 032221

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Richardb02
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OE 032221

Unread post by Richardb02 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:28 pm

I coded this hand as uneventful, but I noticed that S4, Dealer discarded the 9 of next instead of reverse next. Is this a strategic play, discarding next intending partner, S2 to lead back a next? Or is it simply choosing the least powerful discard (9h vs 10s)?

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Dlan
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Unread post by Dlan » Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:29 am

And here is a second question, is the spade queen a better lead than the king?

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:43 pm

To me, it not the size of the card (two low singletons), the suit is more important based on the tendencies of S1 pattern of leads. And if you don't know, just a guess.

~Irishwolf

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:05 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:43 pm
To me, it not the size of the card (two low singletons), the suit is more important based on the tendencies of S1 pattern of leads. And if you don't know, just a guess.

~Irishwolf
I will also like to add to that. Personally for me I do exactly as Irishwolf says but for me its a two part process. When nothing can be determined on tendencies. I play as follows. If Im ordering as dealer and have picked up diamonds. I will usually discard spades if I can. If no spade then clubs. As for hearts pick up as dealer. I will discard clubs, if no club then spades.

However, if s2 orders diamonds I'll discard clubs, then spades if no clubs. If hearts ordered by s2 then spades discard if not then clubs. From this here you can figure out what I'm discarding as dealer or if s2 orders spades or clubs.


Tbolt65
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Richardb02
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Unread post by Richardb02 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:07 pm

Dlan wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:29 am
And here is a second question, is the spade queen a better lead than the king?
I see the wisdom embedded in your question.
Leading Ks would let partner play a low spade, if he has Ax of spades. Is that the concept, professor?

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:58 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:07 pm
Dlan wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:29 am
And here is a second question, is the spade queen a better lead than the king?
I see the wisdom embedded in your question.
Leading Ks would let partner play a low spade, if he has Ax of spades. Is that the concept, professor?
Yes that's one reason leading the Ks is better.

An aside: Against an amateur dealer S3 would want to play over the Ks with the As in that spot if he had AsXs and then double lead a spade to put him in an immediate squeeze hoping he gets overtrumped. Against a good dealer though this ploy won't work as he'll just throw off on the spade double lead. Although even against a good dealer S3 would run this ploy if he has the Right or the guarded Left or Ax in trump. S3 knows the maker will play off on the double spade lead but he's hoping his P can trump in and take the trick and then a euchre is imminent or likely to be.

Another reason leading the Ks is better is this gives S3 the option of throwing off and gambling on that king hoping it walks. Sometimes S3 will have a hand that doesn't wanna risk getting overtrumped but has a chance at euchring the maker if the AS is in the kitty and that KS walks. If S1 leads the QS, S3 can't gamble on a QS with the kind of hand I'm talking about, he has to trump in.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:20 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:28 pm
I coded this hand as uneventful, but I noticed that S4, Dealer discarded the 9 of next instead of reverse next. Is this a strategic play, discarding next intending partner, S2 to lead back a next? Or is it simply choosing the least powerful discard (9h vs 10s)?
Choosing the least powerful discard is only relevant imo when one of those cards is a King. For example say one had a choice between discarding the 9H or the KS. One can argue that it's better to discard the 9H and keep the KS since the KS has a small chance of taking a trick. Irishwolf has made that argument. I disagree with him but who knows. I'd still rather short-suit myself in green (KS) and keep the 9H. For one, when you void yourself in green you now are void in a suit with 5 cards in the wild. When you void yourself in Next you are void in a suit with 4 cards in the wild. There is more value in being void in a suit with more cards in the wild as you are less likely to get overtrumped or be in a spot where S3 trumps high and puts you in a bind. Secondly, I feel like most players tend to lead green from S1, which makes it more advantageous to be void in green. I suspect these advantages, however small, overcome the value of the KD sometimes taking a trick. But who knows without putting this to the test. Irishwolf could be right. Also it goes without saying, if S4 is going alone keep the higher card always regardless of suit. The above is about scenarios when the maker is not going alone.

In your hand there is no difference in the intrinsic value of the 9H vs the TS. Both cards are not taking a trick. But as mentioned it is more advantageous to be void in a suit with more cards out in the wild. So the default play for the maker in that spot should be to discard the TS. With no reads that's what he should always do. Only a very specific S1 player read could make him do otherwise. E.G. S1 has a habit of leading Next a lot. Ok time to discard the 9D.

Richardb02
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Unread post by Richardb02 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:36 am

Great posts guys! Thank you for the very clear principles in discarding.

Dlan, can we move this post to Beginner & Casual and change the title to “Discarding Basics”? In fact, if my analysis of a K lead vs the Q lead is correct, let’s call it “Discarding & Communicating with Your Partner Basics.”

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Dlan
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Unread post by Dlan » Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:00 pm

Richard02,

Cut and paste into a new post in B+C forum if you'd like

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