https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D
the I don't want to play anymore with my P hand
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LeftyK
- Posts: 261
- Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:45 am
- Location: North Carolina
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irishwolf
- Posts: 1314
- Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm
I don't get the comment?
So do some explaining!
So do some explaining!
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Wes (aka the legend)
- Posts: 1538
- Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm
It is not clear at all to me that S1 misplayed this hand. S1 took a calculated risk and played off when the maker led the garbage spade, hoping his P could take the trick. If his P did take that spade trick, then the maker would be in a squeeze spot with S1 sitting behind the maker with a high trump ready to overtrump which could possibly lead to a euchre. What S1 did here is take the line that maximizes euchres. But yeah, it's a calculated risk that can certainly backfire and it did.
When S1's strategy backfires what does it cost his team? We can actually quantify the cost (https://members.tripod.com/borf_books/euchprob.htm). If S1 simply trumps in on the garbage spade lead, basically abandoning the idea of euchring the maker and just making sure his opponents don't get a 2 point march, then S1's team is down 9-2 on their deal. In that spot his team has approximately 3% equity. When S1 takes a risk and plays off on the garbage spade lead to maximize his team's euchre chances and it backfires his team loses 10-2, I.E. 0% equity. So when S1's strategy backfires it only costs his team 3% equity. It is hard to quantify how many extra euchres S1's strategy will get and whether it's worth the risk, but when the risk is only 3% equity S1's strategy at the very least is reasonable and defensible. S1's strategy could easily be correct, I suspect it is, but that's hard to prove. I mean S1's team is down 8-2 and he's trying to make a play here. I can't blame him.
When S1's strategy backfires what does it cost his team? We can actually quantify the cost (https://members.tripod.com/borf_books/euchprob.htm). If S1 simply trumps in on the garbage spade lead, basically abandoning the idea of euchring the maker and just making sure his opponents don't get a 2 point march, then S1's team is down 9-2 on their deal. In that spot his team has approximately 3% equity. When S1 takes a risk and plays off on the garbage spade lead to maximize his team's euchre chances and it backfires his team loses 10-2, I.E. 0% equity. So when S1's strategy backfires it only costs his team 3% equity. It is hard to quantify how many extra euchres S1's strategy will get and whether it's worth the risk, but when the risk is only 3% equity S1's strategy at the very least is reasonable and defensible. S1's strategy could easily be correct, I suspect it is, but that's hard to prove. I mean S1's team is down 8-2 and he's trying to make a play here. I can't blame him.
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irishwolf
- Posts: 1314
- Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm
I was at S1 and you are exactly correct. With being down this much, the only way to get back in the game is for a euchre and S1 to get behind the strength. If they go to 9 to 2 it only gets worse. Duh!
I went 5 & 2, I am happy with my performance. But boy, could I critique someone's play.
Irishwolf
I went 5 & 2, I am happy with my performance. But boy, could I critique someone's play.
Irishwolf
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irishwolf
- Posts: 1314
- Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm
Hmm, waiting for a reply Lefty?
If you make a claim, back up your stated premise, please!
Irishwolf
If you make a claim, back up your stated premise, please!
Irishwolf
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Tbolt65
- Posts: 813
- Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
- Location: Las Vegas
Perhaps he thought the dealer should have gone alone? Thats the only rationale thought I can really see a "possible" argument for.
Tbolt65
Edward
Edit: Reason I didnt comment on going under/throwing off/sloughing the spade because Its a viable play and/or gamble for seat 1.
Tbolt65
Edward
Edit: Reason I didnt comment on going under/throwing off/sloughing the spade because Its a viable play and/or gamble for seat 1.
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LeftyK
- Posts: 261
- Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:45 am
- Location: North Carolina
equity schmeckity --- hit with trump and hit it hard is the standard rule.... And yeah I went 2-4 on the night so my goal of 500 ball with this crew wasn't met. I made two "incorrect plays. ....giving s1 a loner as dealer (that was irish no less...(had guarded left and right of next so I passed). and when Irish was my P and I called Right ace off ace from s1r1. maybe next was the better call. two. that's it. ///sorry my brain doesn't compute a euchre from s1r1. I only see 9-2 our deal possible.
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Wes (aka the legend)
- Posts: 1538
- Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm
Most "standard rules" in euchre are really just rules of thumb for beginners. We can do better than that.
What happened in this particular hand is irrelevant. S1 is playing for the euchre which is completely understandable down 8-2. If he were my P that's what I'd want him to do in that spot. It didn't work out. No big deal.
Also worth noting: if opponents were at 9 then S1's line is unequivocally correct. Holding the enemy to 1 pt does nothing. Have to take the line that maximizes euchres and S1 cannot allow the maker to set up a potential easy pt endplay.
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irishwolf
- Posts: 1314
- Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm
#1. Beg your pardon: AH was up, you ordered from 1st seat with Right & King. You also had AS. You led the Right, then your AS that got trumped. Had you waited on Next, You would have had Left & King with KH & AS. A MUCH STRONGER HAND in Next. Your off suit was KD & 10C, with AS, no voids. It was ugly. You must have 3 probable tricks to order the dealer from either 1st seat or 3rd seat. Those are beginner RULES OF THUMB!
"when Irish was my P and I called Right ace off ace from s1r1. maybe next was the better call..."
On one had you at S1, with AS & AC QC and you led the QC to the first trick. Lucky that I had the KC. I clearly do not understand this strategy. Then the dealer had the KS and you won the trick with the AS and lead back to the dealer with the 10S. If he played the KS, how does that help? I can give you more, JUST ASK!
~IRISHWOLF
"when Irish was my P and I called Right ace off ace from s1r1. maybe next was the better call..."
On one had you at S1, with AS & AC QC and you led the QC to the first trick. Lucky that I had the KC. I clearly do not understand this strategy. Then the dealer had the KS and you won the trick with the AS and lead back to the dealer with the 10S. If he played the KS, how does that help? I can give you more, JUST ASK!
~IRISHWOLF
Last edited by irishwolf on Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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irishwolf
- Posts: 1314
- Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm
100% correct!
WES SAID, "What happened in this particular hand is irrelevant. S1 is playing for the euchre which is completely understandable down 8-2. If he were my P that's what I'd want him to do in that spot. It didn't work out. No big deal.
Also worth noting: if opponents were at 9 then S1's line is unequivocally correct. Holding the enemy to 1 pt does nothing. Have to take the line that maximizes euchres and S1 cannot allow the maker to set up a potential easy pt endplay."
Okay, suppose my ace took that trick. Now I am leading into the maker, just what he wants. 9 - 2 or 10 - 2, move to the next game. Crying over.
WES SAID, "What happened in this particular hand is irrelevant. S1 is playing for the euchre which is completely understandable down 8-2. If he were my P that's what I'd want him to do in that spot. It didn't work out. No big deal.
Also worth noting: if opponents were at 9 then S1's line is unequivocally correct. Holding the enemy to 1 pt does nothing. Have to take the line that maximizes euchres and S1 cannot allow the maker to set up a potential easy pt endplay."
Okay, suppose my ace took that trick. Now I am leading into the maker, just what he wants. 9 - 2 or 10 - 2, move to the next game. Crying over.
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irishwolf
- Posts: 1314
- Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm
Lefty, I was serious when I suggested, the follow:
" I can give you more, JUST ASK! "
We are all here to share ideas, strategies, etc. etc. Not as a smack down but how to improve your game. That is up to you. You made two mistakes on one play, I can give you the hand but you have to ask?
In Euchre, to improve, you have to have a thick skin, accept feedback only if you want it! And note, I have every mistake play there has ever been, and sometimes twice! Maybe never again!] IT IS CALLED - HUMBLE PIE! That is advice for anyone listening!
And guess what, you always have the right to reject the feedback. Say, no I don't believe that at all. I am okay with what I am doing. So I have the hand, and what occurred.
You will receive it if you say, okay what it is this time? JUST ASK! Hell, player pay for this advice.
~Irishwolf
" I can give you more, JUST ASK! "
We are all here to share ideas, strategies, etc. etc. Not as a smack down but how to improve your game. That is up to you. You made two mistakes on one play, I can give you the hand but you have to ask?
In Euchre, to improve, you have to have a thick skin, accept feedback only if you want it! And note, I have every mistake play there has ever been, and sometimes twice! Maybe never again!] IT IS CALLED - HUMBLE PIE! That is advice for anyone listening!
And guess what, you always have the right to reject the feedback. Say, no I don't believe that at all. I am okay with what I am doing. So I have the hand, and what occurred.
You will receive it if you say, okay what it is this time? JUST ASK! Hell, player pay for this advice.
~Irishwolf
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Richardb02
- Posts: 746
- Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
- Location: Florida
Great points IrishWolf.
I understand the pain when I am wrong. I understand the negative feelings of being called out and the isolation when I alone disagree with the posters. Then I remember the goal of the forum is to improve my game. I realize, “muh feelings don’t matter”, improvement is the goal! Then it is easier to respect others’ opinions and explanations, take what is valuable to me, forget everything else and move on.
I understand the pain when I am wrong. I understand the negative feelings of being called out and the isolation when I alone disagree with the posters. Then I remember the goal of the forum is to improve my game. I realize, “muh feelings don’t matter”, improvement is the goal! Then it is easier to respect others’ opinions and explanations, take what is valuable to me, forget everything else and move on.
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LeftyK
- Posts: 261
- Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:45 am
- Location: North Carolina
we'll see how it goes tonight. I'm bringing my A game. I was distracted by NCAA basketball last time.
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LeftyK
- Posts: 261
- Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:45 am
- Location: North Carolina
no game A tonight........ won exactly one game. garbage.