OE030821 4 interesting plays

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Richardb02
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OE030821 4 interesting plays

Unread post by Richardb02 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:19 pm


R1S4 Order; Trick 1 (Street 1) Lead, Trick 3 play, Trick 4 Play
Comments?
Image

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

Last edited by Richardb02 on Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:50 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:19 pm

R1S4 Order; Trick 1 (Street 1) Lead, Trick 3 play, Trick 4 Play
Comments?
https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

You forgot to cover the names up! :)

I found this hand very amusing. I called as the dealer with R+1, and it felt like my P was trying his hardest to euchre me. He just didn't understand it ain't that easy to euchre a legend! There's a life lesson in this hand too. Notice on 3rd street and 4th street my faith in my P never waivered. I stubbornly kept giving him a chance to save me until he did. Never EVER give up on people! My P tried to euchre me on 2nd street by not giving me that crucial boss lead with his AS. My P tried to euchre me on 3rd street by playing under the KS but on 4th street I still gave my P another chance. My play basically said to him, "You know what bro, I don't care, I still love you anyways", and on 4th street my P finally loved me back.
Last edited by Wes (aka the legend) on Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Richardb02
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Unread post by Richardb02 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:06 pm

I edited and deleted the names. Your turn to edit.

The power went out as I was posting.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:18 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:06 pm
I edited and deleted the names. Your turn to edit.

The power went out as I was posting.
I can't edit any further. It's a masterpiece.

irishwolf
Posts: 1050
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:27 pm

Masterpiece?
But it makes no sense for S3 to lead another spade on trick 4. He should have known when S1 led the KD, he does not have another trump, HE MUST HAVE ACES.
Lead the F ing AD.

But I am going to be critical of S1 in this hand. He did a great job of leading trump to make his aces good. However, he failed the test by not winning the club trick with his ace. He could have had his euchre. He wins the with the AC and now leads the AH. He then would have observed that no one had hearts but he and the dealer and two unknown trumps (10D & AD). If the dealer has three trumps he makes his point regardless. But lead his 2nd heart, hoping his partner could trump it.

It is amazing that players do not think AHEAD, on how a hand can play out. Always think in terms of a five card strategy as to the best, and most probable results. It does not always work out. That's Euchre.

~IRISHWOLF

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1423
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:36 am

irishwolf wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:27 pm
Masterpiece?
But it makes no sense for S3 to lead another spade on trick 4. He should have known when S1 led the KD, he does not have another trump, HE MUST HAVE ACES.
Lead the F ing AD.
Very good point Wolf. On the first lead the exposed cards suggest the only 2 trump possibility for S1 would be KDTD but if S1 had that he would've led the TD, therefore the KD is the only trump S1 has. S3 also had another cue telling him his P in S1 has no more trump: When S1 played off on S3's KS lead on 3rd street. And S1 only had the KD trump which we know is true, then his hand is screaming Aces with his 1st street trump lead. Therefore without a boss spade S3 MUST lead trump on trick 4.
irishwolf wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:27 pm
But I am going to be critical of S1 in this hand. He did a great job of leading trump to make his aces good.
Did he tho? Sometimes I wonder about this play. Now as we've discussed before against a 2S call it is absolutely mandatory that S1 lead with trump from this configuration. But I wonder about that against a dealer call. Now leading trump can strip our P's guarded Left, or if our P has a hand with euchre potential like for example AdJd, our trump lead can disrupt it. And of course S2 is not guaranteed to have a trump which weakens this play somewhat compared to leading trump vs a 2S call. IDK I'm not convinced that leading trump with this hand vs a dealer call is the best play. I'm really not sure either way tho.
irishwolf wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:27 pm
However, he failed the test by not winning the club trick with his ace. He could have had his euchre. He wins the with the AC and now leads the AH. He then would have observed that no one had hearts but he and the dealer and two unknown trumps (10D & AD). If the dealer has three trumps he makes his point regardless. But lead his 2nd heart, hoping his partner could trump it.
Good stuff Wolf. Another reason S1 should not play under the KC is keeping the lead in the wrong spot for the maker, I.E. keeping the lead in S3's hand does nothing for S1-S3's team since S1 has no trump left to overtrump the maker. Can't put the maker in a squeeze when you have no trump.
irishwolf wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:27 pm
It is amazing that players do not think AHEAD, on how a hand can play out. Always think in terms of a five card strategy as to the best, and most probable results. It does not always work out. That's Euchre.

~IRISHWOLF
One may think to themself, "I can't think about all these factors fast enough in the heat of battle" and I would say to them, you don't have too! That's what this forum is for. Constantly study hands and various situations to the point where you can be ready for almost any contingency before the hand even happens. Dealing out hands on the kitchen table can help a lot too. Good post Irishwolf.

irishwolf
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:10 am

Wes said, "Did he tho? Sometimes I wonder about this play. Now as we've discussed before against a 2S call it is absolutely mandatory that S1 lead with trump from this configuration. But I wonder about that against a dealer call. Now leading trump can strip our P's guarded Left, or if our P has a hand with euchre potential like for example AdJd, our trump lead can disrupt it. And of course S2 is not guaranteed to have a trump which weakens this play somewhat compared to leading trump vs a 2S call. IDK I'm not convinced that leading trump with this hand vs a dealer call is the best play. I'm really not sure either way tho."

Well, I am sure not a good idea, generally, when the dealer calls on R1 (weak being 2 trumps. Only works in exceptional situations on WEAK hands. So yes, good to question the lead. Even if S1 has the Right + 2 aces, both bowers w/an ace and some other holdings. Just not a good idea to lead trump as it generally helps the dealer/maker.

Wes says, "One may think to themself, "I can't think about all these factors fast enough in the heat of battle" and I would say to them, you don't have too! That's what this forum is for. Constantly study hands and various situations to the point where you can be ready for almost any contingency . . ."

I've studied the topic on EXPERTISE in general. Chess players and other topics as well. I am talking about research article. Experts in their field of expertise, think in terms of "Chunks" of information and experience. They don't have to wade thorough tons of memory. It's all right there to sort out just a few situations and decide how to approach the current issue. It's a millisecond (a millisecond is .001 of a seconds) of decision making of the experienced situations or similar situation. The point is if you do NOT have the experience then you are in no mans territory.

Thus, I am not so sure just reading what is on this forum is so helpful. Yes, in getting IDEAS and Suggestions for further study. It has to be hard wired in your memory bank and that is a different subject. Experts do what is called DELIBERATE PRACTICE. Practice and experience with a purpose. Just reading will not get your where you need to be. And the sad part is if you have practiced bad habits, you have to "rewire" those. That is very difficult without some real effort. So if what you want to be an expert you have to have dedicated, deliberate practice. If you just treat it as a social game, you will not rise to the top of the mountain.
My father was an excellent player. He taught us many of the fundamentals of the game. If he were alive today, he might say I have ruined his great game by turning it into a statistical game.

I will stop there. You can believe or not believe what I just said.

~Irishwolf

Tbolt65
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Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:33 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:10 am
Wes said, "Did he tho? Sometimes I wonder about this play. Now as we've discussed before against a 2S call it is absolutely mandatory that S1 lead with trump from this configuration. But I wonder about that against a dealer call. Now leading trump can strip our P's guarded Left, or if our P has a hand with euchre potential like for example AdJd, our trump lead can disrupt it. And of course S2 is not guaranteed to have a trump which weakens this play somewhat compared to leading trump vs a 2S call. IDK I'm not convinced that leading trump with this hand vs a dealer call is the best play. I'm really not sure either way tho."

Well, I am sure not a good idea, generally, when the dealer calls on R1 (weak being 2 trumps. Only works in exceptional situations on WEAK hands. So yes, good to question the lead. Even if S1 has the Right + 2 aces, both bowers w/an ace and some other holdings. Just not a good idea to lead trump as it generally helps the dealer/maker.

Wes says, "One may think to themself, "I can't think about all these factors fast enough in the heat of battle" and I would say to them, you don't have too! That's what this forum is for. Constantly study hands and various situations to the point where you can be ready for almost any contingency . . ."

I've studied the topic on EXPERTISE in general. Chess players and other topics as well. I am talking about research article. Experts in their field of expertise, think in terms of "Chunks" of information and experience. They don't have to wade thorough tons of memory. It's all right there to sort out just a few situations and decide how to approach the current issue. It's a millisecond (a millisecond is .001 of a seconds) of decision making of the experienced situations or similar situation. The point is if you do NOT have the experience then you are in no mans territory.

Thus, I am not so sure just reading what is on this forum is so helpful. Yes, in getting IDEAS and Suggestions for further study. It has to be hard wired in your memory bank and that is a different subject. Experts do what is called DELIBERATE PRACTICE. Practice and experience with a purpose. Just reading will not get your where you need to be. And the sad part is if you have practiced bad habits, you have to "rewire" those. That is very difficult without some real effort. So if what you want to be an expert you have to have dedicated, deliberate practice. If you just treat it as a social game, you will not rise to the top of the mountain.
My father was an excellent player. He taught us many of the fundamentals of the game. If he were alive today, he might say I have ruined his great game by turning it into a statistical game.

I will stop there. You can believe or not believe what I just said.

~Irishwolf

I believe Irishwolf, I believe.


I was just explaining the bad habits and ruts one can get to Wes last night and the need to keep up practice and employ what they know/have learned on a higher level to keep sharp and mindful of situations that may come from those types of sessions . Hopefully Wes will see since your saying it as well. I honestly feel he weighs your opinions and thoughts higher than mine because of your statistical background. Im cool with it. He really does respect you in that regard. Wes is dedicated to euchre. As to rewire bad habits that is the real chore like you said. Something of which we all have had to face to better our euchre game. Don't fall into complacency or bad habits or get lazy against same or weaker opponents.


Tbolt65
Edward

irishwolf
Posts: 1050
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:11 pm

Thanks Ed, I take that as a compliment. Don't tell Wes but I don't hate him even if he hats me! lol I doubt that is true (he hates me). I know you too as a very good euchre player, top 10% for sure. Good euchre players coalesce, mutual respect, not hate. Hate is not in my vocabulary. But I am Irish, we don't forget, and seldom forgive.

One day, in near future I have a planned trip to visit the West. I have relatives in Idaho and Calif. I just may visit you two. I know a couple of other players I think you both also know in your area. As long as you two check your guns at the door, lol.

Problem is we are too much alike. I also respect (Wes) his comments. They (comments) are far more correct than most players.

~Irishwolf

Tbolt65
Posts: 717
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:13 pm

Anytime, Irishwolf and thankyou as well for the tip of the hat.

That would be great. LoL, my guns have been checked for a while. Im not as gun-ho as before when I was on the EuchreScience group. It would be good to meet you and play some live games. I'm sure Wes would love to meet you as well.

Hmm I wonder whom they could be?

Just for the record our paths haven't crossed before at a euchre tournament, online euchre site(i.e. Yahoo or Pogo) or at EuchreScience Group? Just here correct?

I have had a long suspicion. An almost Darth Vader like impression/feeling of, " I sense something; a presence I have not felt since", moment with or about you Irishwolf. Either way if I'm right or wrong it would be still neat to meet.


Wes is basically me in his vigor and strong willed determination as when I first started out in euchre and my early years of it. Ive personally mellowed out, perhaps a bit more balance in my life. Not as uber competitive but I still am.

Tbolt65
Edward

Richardb02
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Location: Florida

Unread post by Richardb02 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:21 am

irishwolf wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:27 pm
Masterpiece?
But it makes no sense for S3 to lead another spade on trick 4. He should have known when S1 led the KD, he does not have another trump, HE MUST HAVE ACES.
Lead the F ing AD.

But I am going to be critical of S1 in this hand. He did a great job of leading trump to make his aces good. However, he failed the test by not winning the club trick with his ace. He could have had his euchre. He wins the with the AC and now leads the AH. He then would have observed that no one had hearts but he and the dealer and two unknown trumps (10D & AD). If the dealer has three trumps he makes his point regardless. But lead his 2nd heart, hoping his partner could trump it.

It is amazing that players do not think AHEAD, on how a hand can play out. Always think in terms of a five card strategy as to the best, and most probable results. It does not always work out. That's Euchre.

~IRISHWOLF
Great point Irish! I missed this debatable/masterpiece play in my list of plays. It would have made the Street 3 & 4 plays moot.

In Summary, so far:

R1S4 Order- Minimal debate, order
Trick 1 (Street 1) S1 lead of trump, excellent, to draw trump and strengthen his Aces
Trick 2 Play - Principled but could be improved
Trick 3 play - Poor choice
Trick 4 Play - Masterpiece

Wes even added Street 2 Lead - I would also define this lead as principled but could be improved.

By principled, I mean that the play followed “General Principles.” Improved means going against the General Principle based on superior analysis. The Street 1 lead would also be an improvement on the General Principle, do not lead trump on defense, based on the analysis, leading trump reduces the probability that S1’s Aces could be trumped.

Personally, I am at the General Principle category with occasional forays (often mis-forays) into Improved play. Thanks to the OE Forum & Monday Night games I am improving. Thank you OE, OE players & posters.


Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1423
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:06 am

irishwolf wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:10 am
Wes says, "One may think to themself, "I can't think about all these factors fast enough in the heat of battle" and I would say to them, you don't have too! That's what this forum is for. Constantly study hands and various situations to the point where you can be ready for almost any contingency . . ."

I've studied the topic on EXPERTISE in general. Chess players and other topics as well. I am talking about research article. Experts in their field of expertise, think in terms of "Chunks" of information and experience. They don't have to wade thorough tons of memory. It's all right there to sort out just a few situations and decide how to approach the current issue. It's a millisecond (a millisecond is .001 of a seconds) of decision making of the experienced situations or similar situation. The point is if you do NOT have the experience then you are in no mans territory.

Thus, I am not so sure just reading what is on this forum is so helpful. Yes, in getting IDEAS and Suggestions for further study. It has to be hard wired in your memory bank and that is a different subject. Experts do what is called DELIBERATE PRACTICE. Practice and experience with a purpose. Just reading will not get your where you need to be. And the sad part is if you have practiced bad habits, you have to "rewire" those. That is very difficult without some real effort. So if what you want to be an expert you have to have dedicated, deliberate practice. If you just treat it as a social game, you will not rise to the top of the mountain.
My father was an excellent player. He taught us many of the fundamentals of the game. If he were alive today, he might say I have ruined his great game by turning it into a statistical game.

I will stop there. You can believe or not believe what I just said.

~Irishwolf
I cant disagree with any of this. I do agree that experience is crucial, as I mentioned in another thread (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=522), there is just no substitution for getting those hands in, preferably thousands of games worth especially when it comes to playing defense well.

So I guess what I should say is get those hands in, make the inevitable mistakes, constantly study those spots and learn from those experiences so you'll be ready for that spot next time. IOW what I'm really trying to say is one doesn't have to be some savant who gets every novel situation right. Get the experience in, and you can f**k up every novel situation, as long as you study those spots and figure out what you did wrong and then formulate the correct approach for next time. Over time, there will be less and less novel situations. You'll constantly be in spots where you already know what to do before that spot even happens becuz you've been there before, f**ked it up, studied it and correct your play.

I agree just reading (passive learning) is not enough. Get that experience in, make mistakes, then study + "Dedicated, deliberate practice" (love that phrase) to correct those mistakes and be ready for those troubling spots next time. If one hasn't played euchre alone at the kitchen table then they're not doing it right. Same idea with chess. I was the chess champion at my high school becuz I was the one guy who went home and constantly played chess against myself, so much so that I got terrible grades and got kicked out of that school lol.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1423
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:17 am

Tbolt65 wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:33 pm
I believe Irishwolf, I believe.


I was just explaining the bad habits and ruts one can get to Wes last night and the need to keep up practice and employ what they know/have learned on a higher level to keep sharp and mindful of situations that may come from those types of sessions . Hopefully Wes will see since your saying it as well. I honestly feel he weighs your opinions and thoughts higher than mine because of your statistical background. Im cool with it. He really does respect you in that regard. Wes is dedicated to euchre. As to rewire bad habits that is the real chore like you said. Something of which we all have had to face to better our euchre game. Don't fall into complacency or bad habits or get lazy against same or weaker opponents.


Tbolt65
Edward
If we're talking straight opinion based on experience and expert intuition, I value both your opinions equally. You guys are both serious players and I have learned a lot from both you guys. But what I value most is empirical evidence and math, and no one delivers on the front better than Irishwolf.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1423
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:37 am

Richardb02 wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:19 pm

R1S4 Order; Trick 1 (Street 1) Lead, Trick 3 play, Trick 4 Play
Comments?
Image

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

I don't wanna drag S2 in the mud more, but I do wanna talk about S2's mistake on 2nd street some more. S2 didn't lead me his off Ace. Instead he led some garbage off suit. The key to being a good P is knowing what your partner wants, and after trump has been led what your P, the maker, wants is boss cards boss cards boss cards. Whether fresh or non-fresh, boss cards boss cards boss cards. Fresh boss cards (the cleaner the better) are better than non-fresh boss cards, but non-fresh boss cards are still great leads that are better than fresh offuit garbage. The key tho is don't give your P a non-fresh boss card lead before trump has been led, then you're just putting your P in a squeeze setting him up to fail.

Why are boss cards leads so awesome after trump has been led? Because this lead forces out remaining enemy trump, allows your P to throw off his garbage and avoid getting overtrumped. These leads increase your team's chances of getting 1 point, and in fact when you have an aggressive P, these boss leads can often be the difference between making a point and getting euchred. And If the enemy is out of trump, these boss leads can easily lead to 2 pts as your P throws away his garbage until he has none.

Check out this example hand:

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

S1 calls Next and S3 gives his P good boss leads on 2nd street and 3rd street, but then on 4th street he fails to lead the boss TS and that screws up the hand and prevents his team from a leisurely 2 point march. Again, remember what your maker P wants: boss leads. Are there exceptions to this rule. Sure, there's always exceptions, but the general truth is after trump has been led, Your P the maker wants boss leads.

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