R1S4 Order; Trick 1 (Street 1) Lead, Trick 3 play, Trick 4 Play
Comments?

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D
Unread post by Richardb02 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:19 pm
Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:50 pm
You forgot to cover the names up!Richardb02 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:19 pm
R1S4 Order; Trick 1 (Street 1) Lead, Trick 3 play, Trick 4 Play
Comments?
https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D
Unread post by Richardb02 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:06 pm
Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:18 pm
I can't edit any further. It's a masterpiece.Richardb02 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:06 pmI edited and deleted the names. Your turn to edit.
The power went out as I was posting.
Unread post by irishwolf » Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:27 pm
Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:36 am
Very good point Wolf. On the first lead the exposed cards suggest the only 2 trump possibility for S1 would be KDTD but if S1 had that he would've led the TD, therefore the KD is the only trump S1 has. S3 also had another cue telling him his P in S1 has no more trump: When S1 played off on S3's KS lead on 3rd street. And S1 only had the KD trump which we know is true, then his hand is screaming Aces with his 1st street trump lead. Therefore without a boss spade S3 MUST lead trump on trick 4.
Did he tho? Sometimes I wonder about this play. Now as we've discussed before against a 2S call it is absolutely mandatory that S1 lead with trump from this configuration. But I wonder about that against a dealer call. Now leading trump can strip our P's guarded Left, or if our P has a hand with euchre potential like for example AdJd, our trump lead can disrupt it. And of course S2 is not guaranteed to have a trump which weakens this play somewhat compared to leading trump vs a 2S call. IDK I'm not convinced that leading trump with this hand vs a dealer call is the best play. I'm really not sure either way tho.
Good stuff Wolf. Another reason S1 should not play under the KC is keeping the lead in the wrong spot for the maker, I.E. keeping the lead in S3's hand does nothing for S1-S3's team since S1 has no trump left to overtrump the maker. Can't put the maker in a squeeze when you have no trump.irishwolf wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:27 pmHowever, he failed the test by not winning the club trick with his ace. He could have had his euchre. He wins the with the AC and now leads the AH. He then would have observed that no one had hearts but he and the dealer and two unknown trumps (10D & AD). If the dealer has three trumps he makes his point regardless. But lead his 2nd heart, hoping his partner could trump it.
One may think to themself, "I can't think about all these factors fast enough in the heat of battle" and I would say to them, you don't have too! That's what this forum is for. Constantly study hands and various situations to the point where you can be ready for almost any contingency before the hand even happens. Dealing out hands on the kitchen table can help a lot too. Good post Irishwolf.
Unread post by irishwolf » Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:10 am
Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:33 pm
irishwolf wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:10 amWes said, "Did he tho? Sometimes I wonder about this play. Now as we've discussed before against a 2S call it is absolutely mandatory that S1 lead with trump from this configuration. But I wonder about that against a dealer call. Now leading trump can strip our P's guarded Left, or if our P has a hand with euchre potential like for example AdJd, our trump lead can disrupt it. And of course S2 is not guaranteed to have a trump which weakens this play somewhat compared to leading trump vs a 2S call. IDK I'm not convinced that leading trump with this hand vs a dealer call is the best play. I'm really not sure either way tho."
Well, I am sure not a good idea, generally, when the dealer calls on R1 (weak being 2 trumps. Only works in exceptional situations on WEAK hands. So yes, good to question the lead. Even if S1 has the Right + 2 aces, both bowers w/an ace and some other holdings. Just not a good idea to lead trump as it generally helps the dealer/maker.
Wes says, "One may think to themself, "I can't think about all these factors fast enough in the heat of battle" and I would say to them, you don't have too! That's what this forum is for. Constantly study hands and various situations to the point where you can be ready for almost any contingency . . ."
I've studied the topic on EXPERTISE in general. Chess players and other topics as well. I am talking about research article. Experts in their field of expertise, think in terms of "Chunks" of information and experience. They don't have to wade thorough tons of memory. It's all right there to sort out just a few situations and decide how to approach the current issue. It's a millisecond (a millisecond is .001 of a seconds) of decision making of the experienced situations or similar situation. The point is if you do NOT have the experience then you are in no mans territory.
Thus, I am not so sure just reading what is on this forum is so helpful. Yes, in getting IDEAS and Suggestions for further study. It has to be hard wired in your memory bank and that is a different subject. Experts do what is called DELIBERATE PRACTICE. Practice and experience with a purpose. Just reading will not get your where you need to be. And the sad part is if you have practiced bad habits, you have to "rewire" those. That is very difficult without some real effort. So if what you want to be an expert you have to have dedicated, deliberate practice. If you just treat it as a social game, you will not rise to the top of the mountain.
My father was an excellent player. He taught us many of the fundamentals of the game. If he were alive today, he might say I have ruined his great game by turning it into a statistical game.
I will stop there. You can believe or not believe what I just said.
~Irishwolf
Unread post by irishwolf » Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:11 pm
Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:13 pm
Unread post by Richardb02 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:21 am
Great point Irish! I missed this debatable/masterpiece play in my list of plays. It would have made the Street 3 & 4 plays moot.irishwolf wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:27 pmMasterpiece?
But it makes no sense for S3 to lead another spade on trick 4. He should have known when S1 led the KD, he does not have another trump, HE MUST HAVE ACES.
Lead the F ing AD.
But I am going to be critical of S1 in this hand. He did a great job of leading trump to make his aces good. However, he failed the test by not winning the club trick with his ace. He could have had his euchre. He wins the with the AC and now leads the AH. He then would have observed that no one had hearts but he and the dealer and two unknown trumps (10D & AD). If the dealer has three trumps he makes his point regardless. But lead his 2nd heart, hoping his partner could trump it.
It is amazing that players do not think AHEAD, on how a hand can play out. Always think in terms of a five card strategy as to the best, and most probable results. It does not always work out. That's Euchre.
~IRISHWOLF
Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:06 am
I cant disagree with any of this. I do agree that experience is crucial, as I mentioned in another thread (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=522), there is just no substitution for getting those hands in, preferably thousands of games worth especially when it comes to playing defense well.irishwolf wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:10 amWes says, "One may think to themself, "I can't think about all these factors fast enough in the heat of battle" and I would say to them, you don't have too! That's what this forum is for. Constantly study hands and various situations to the point where you can be ready for almost any contingency . . ."
I've studied the topic on EXPERTISE in general. Chess players and other topics as well. I am talking about research article. Experts in their field of expertise, think in terms of "Chunks" of information and experience. They don't have to wade thorough tons of memory. It's all right there to sort out just a few situations and decide how to approach the current issue. It's a millisecond (a millisecond is .001 of a seconds) of decision making of the experienced situations or similar situation. The point is if you do NOT have the experience then you are in no mans territory.
Thus, I am not so sure just reading what is on this forum is so helpful. Yes, in getting IDEAS and Suggestions for further study. It has to be hard wired in your memory bank and that is a different subject. Experts do what is called DELIBERATE PRACTICE. Practice and experience with a purpose. Just reading will not get your where you need to be. And the sad part is if you have practiced bad habits, you have to "rewire" those. That is very difficult without some real effort. So if what you want to be an expert you have to have dedicated, deliberate practice. If you just treat it as a social game, you will not rise to the top of the mountain.
My father was an excellent player. He taught us many of the fundamentals of the game. If he were alive today, he might say I have ruined his great game by turning it into a statistical game.
I will stop there. You can believe or not believe what I just said.
~Irishwolf
Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:17 am
If we're talking straight opinion based on experience and expert intuition, I value both your opinions equally. You guys are both serious players and I have learned a lot from both you guys. But what I value most is empirical evidence and math, and no one delivers on the front better than Irishwolf.Tbolt65 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:33 pmI believe Irishwolf, I believe.
I was just explaining the bad habits and ruts one can get to Wes last night and the need to keep up practice and employ what they know/have learned on a higher level to keep sharp and mindful of situations that may come from those types of sessions . Hopefully Wes will see since your saying it as well. I honestly feel he weighs your opinions and thoughts higher than mine because of your statistical background. Im cool with it. He really does respect you in that regard. Wes is dedicated to euchre. As to rewire bad habits that is the real chore like you said. Something of which we all have had to face to better our euchre game. Don't fall into complacency or bad habits or get lazy against same or weaker opponents.
Tbolt65
Edward
Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:37 am
I don't wanna drag S2 in the mud more, but I do wanna talk about S2's mistake on 2nd street some more. S2 didn't lead me his off Ace. Instead he led some garbage off suit. The key to being a good P is knowing what your partner wants, and after trump has been led what your P, the maker, wants is boss cards boss cards boss cards. Whether fresh or non-fresh, boss cards boss cards boss cards. Fresh boss cards (the cleaner the better) are better than non-fresh boss cards, but non-fresh boss cards are still great leads that are better than fresh offuit garbage. The key tho is don't give your P a non-fresh boss card lead before trump has been led, then you're just putting your P in a squeeze setting him up to fail.Richardb02 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:19 pm
R1S4 Order; Trick 1 (Street 1) Lead, Trick 3 play, Trick 4 Play
Comments?
https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D
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