Errors in play OE Monday night

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LeftyK
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Errors in play OE Monday night

Unread post by LeftyK » Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:31 am

The call was iffy in my book, but then I don't understand the letting go of guarded left. You know where one of the dutchman are. The point was made if s3 leads non trump.

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LeftyK
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Unread post by LeftyK » Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:48 am

And then the hand of the night in summary. Had my P trumped in 1st trick, I can lay off. Then he can lead second trick with off Ace, I again can lay off and now have trumps remaining. On third trick I over trump Ace of trumps with left then lead either trump to win the fifth trick. If Ace trumps not played I hit low then lead with left. Either way game should have continued to 8-9 their deal.

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LeftyK
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Unread post by LeftyK » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:01 am

Another biddable hand (which cannot be lost BTW) which my P did not call.
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irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:23 pm

On the first hand, I have a couple of questions. Why would you lead the KS not the AC on the 2nd trick? Are you really helping your partner to signal with the AC slough?

However, true your comment below:

"The call was iffy in my book, but then I don't understand the letting go of guarded left. You know where one of the dutchman are. The point was made if s3 leads non trump."

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Dlan
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Unread post by Dlan » Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:41 pm

Please, make a separate post for each hand. This allows others to keep their responses relevant to a single hand, making it simpler to follow.

TIA, Dlan

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LeftyK
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Unread post by LeftyK » Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:32 am

it is, same partner made all of these possible to discuss :>)

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:50 am

LeftyK wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:31 am
The call was iffy in my book, but then I don't understand the letting go of guarded left. You know where one of the dutchman are. The point was made if s3 leads non trump.

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The third seat call is bad. L+Q+T vs an Ace upcard is too weak of a hand from third. The fact that S3 hits a next call well and even has a black bower to help out his aggressive P those time's his P crosses the river makes this call an egregious mistake. S3 should be bagging this hand all day.

And yes breaking up the guarded Left was a mistake but S1 made a critical mistake too that Irishwolf pointed out. S1 correctly led the AD on 1st street but then he had another boss lead, the AC, and he didn't lead it. Any time S3 calls trump and S1 has no trump, this is a precarious situation. This is not a time to be thinking about 2 pts, S1 should be thinking about survival, I.E. avoiding a euchre. And the best way to do that is keep giving your P fresh boss leads. This allows your P to get rid of his garbage and crucially this lead protects your P from getting overtrumped. Becuz when your P calls from S3 and you have no trump to lead him, him getting overtrumped very often leads to a euchre. It is S1's job to be a good partner and do his best to protect his P on that front. When S1 leads his garble spade card he is setting his P up to possibly get overtrumped and that is bad play. Lead the AC, who cares if the dealer trumps it. If that lead allows your P to shed another garbage card and thus avoid getting overtrumped your team is now is great shape. Again, all that mattes in this spot is surviving and the best way to do that is give your P leads that wont get him overtrumped.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:16 am

LeftyK wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:48 am
And then the hand of the night in summary. Had my P trumped in 1st trick, I can lay off. Then he can lead second trick with off Ace, I again can lay off and now have trumps remaining. On third trick I over trump Ace of trumps with left then lead either trump to win the fifth trick. If Ace trumps not played I hit low then lead with left. Either way game should have continued to 8-9 their deal.

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We can see why S2 laid off on the first lead. Becuz if he trumped in, he would only have a toxic lead back, a quadrupleton Ace. Seems like a plausible strategy by S2. In fact I used to play this spot like that. But IMO it's wrong. I do think S2 is better off trumping in and sending the AH. When S2 plays off he's basically trying to play for 2, hoping you get the first trick and thus S2's toxic lead that'll probably stop a 2 pt march from ever happening is avoided. But IMO, S2 is better off giving up on 2 pt fantasies and playing this hand to maximize his team's chances of getting 1. I.E. play the hand to survive. Don't get greedy. His toxic AH lead isn't as toxic as it looks. If S3 follows suit, this lead still allows the maker to throw off a garbage card, and assuming S1 invariably trumps in, this still puts the lead in the right spot relative to the maker. So two good things happen with this "toxic" lead in this scenario.

In the other scenario when S3 trumps in and S4 the maker overtrumps, there's still a very good chance S4 will not get overtrumped by S1 as there are still 2 hearts between S1 and the kitty. S1 can easily have one of them. And thus in this scenario S2's "toxic" lead forced S3 to burn a trump. I suppose the worse scenario is S3 trumps in and S4 the maker has a heart. Now the lead's in the wrong spot and the maker is in a semi-squeeze, but this won't happen very often and even in this scenario, S2's "toxic" lead still forced out an enemy trump. That in itself is a good thing. The other bad scenario is S3 trumps in, S4 overtrumps, and then gets overtrumped by S1. Again this wont happen very often, but even this bad scenario ain't that bad. The maker burned a trump but his opponents burned two. Not a bad deal.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:24 am

LeftyK wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:01 am
Another biddable hand (which cannot be lost BTW) which my P did not call.
https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D
I agree this is a call. Any two trump + two aces is a call from S2 IMO, although if trailing by alot and I have a good aggressive P and S1 doesn't donate, I can see passing this holding when we have two low trump hoping our P has that comeback loner. But in this hand up 8-5, it's absolutely critical S2 make's this call. Not just cuz he has a good hand but also becuz he blocks no suits. It would be a tragedy if passing this biddable hand led to a S1-R2 4 pt loner. And plus when you're up 8-5, getting euchred isn't that big of a deal.

In this spot if all I had was this from S2 up 8-5:

(Card_10-D) (Card_9-D) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_10-S)

I'm going with "best I got" and calling diamonds. If we get euchred we're still up 8-7. No biggie. What's most important is this hand never gets to the 2nd round. And that's the thought process S2 should've had in his spot with his holding although this thought process would've also sufficed, "2 trump, 2 aces, f**k yeah, I call!"

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:33 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:50 am
And yes breaking up the guarded Left was a mistake but S1 made a critical mistake too that Irishwolf pointed out. S1 correctly led the AD on 1st street but then he had another boss lead, the AC, and he didn't lead it. Any time S3 calls trump and S1 has no trump, this is a precarious situation. This is not a time to be thinking about 2 pts, S1 should be thinking about survival, I.E. avoiding a euchre. And the best way to do that is keep giving your P fresh boss leads. This allows your P to get rid of his garbage and crucially this lead protects your P from getting overtrumped. Becuz when your P calls from S3 and you have no trump to lead him, him getting overtrumped very often leads to a euchre. It is S1's job to be a good partner and do his best to protect his P on that front. When S1 leads his garble spade card he is setting his P up to possibly get overtrumped and that is bad play. Lead the AC, who cares if the dealer trumps it. If that lead allows your P to shed another garbage card and thus avoid getting overtrumped your team is now is great shape. Again, all that mattes in this spot is surviving and the best way to do that is give your P leads that wont get him overtrumped.
Here's another example of egregious S1 play in a similar spot. S3 calls and S1 has no trump. S1 needs to be a good P here and give his P the lead he wants, an off ace to allow S3 to shed some garbage and crucially to protect S3 from getting overtrumped. S1 had an AH to lead, instead he leads a garbage diamond.

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irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:15 pm

1ST HAND,

I agree with WES. And I asked the question(s) but Left, for what ever reason, did not answer. So I dropped the discussion because if a player does not want to know or hear the answer. It is fine with me! The KS was a bad lead to 2nd trick. Then it allowed the Dealer (I sure it Wes, lol) acted like Brer Rabbit "Throw me in the brier patch..." And HE DID! You fell for the BS!

"And yes breaking up the guarded Left was a mistake but S1 made a critical mistake too that Irishwolf pointed out. S1 correctly led the AD on 1st street but then he had another boss lead, the AC, and he didn't lead it. Any time S3 calls trump and S1 has no trump, this is a precarious situation. This is not a time to be thinking about 2 pts, S1 should be thinking about survival, I.E. avoiding a euchre. And the best way to do that is keep giving your P fresh boss leads. This allows your P to get rid of his garbage and crucially this lead protects your P from getting overtrumped..."

But that is not all I wanted to say. When you hold ACE/KING, you might think you are helping your partner but NOT ALWAYS. A great move when defending against a loner or you know you are going for a sweep but not when you are only hoping to get out of a bind because it gives information to the opponents on WHAT NOT TO LEAD. You have to chose those situations. And in this situation, I say BAD!

~IRISHWOLF

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