OE games 2-8 - When do you lead left?

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Dlan
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OE games 2-8 - When do you lead left?

Unread post by Dlan » Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:59 pm




Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:28 pm

At this score, you always lead your left in this SCENARIO when you take the first trick to your partner who ordered you up from seat 2 round 1. ALWAYS!

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:24 am

The dealer's team just won the 1st trick without burning one trump. With L+1 and S2 being the maker, the dealer should now be thinking about playing for 2, which means play the card the maker wants to see the most, the Left. Not leading the Left in this spot is a critical mistake.

The one exception when the dealer should NOT lead the left: When the score is 9-9 or you're down 9-8 and S2 is an expert. Now S2's range could be very weak. It's possible that he could only hold the Right and that's why you can't lead the Left on 2nd street in this spot.

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Unread post by Dlan » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:41 pm

There should be no exceptions. It is doubtful an "expert" would order their partner with only the right and nothing to back it up. This would be especially true at a score of 9 to 8.

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:44 pm

Dlan wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:41 pm
There should be no exceptions. It is doubtful an "expert" would order their partner with only the right and nothing to back it up. This would be especially true at a score of 9 to 8.
At 9-9 or down 9-8, say the upcard is the (Card_10-C)

If an expert has a hand like (Card_J-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_10-H) (Card_9-H)

He must call. Clubs is the best he's got, and if the dealer passes it's probably game over. Hence there are times when the dealer should not lead the Left. But these cases are extremely rare. Number one, they only occur at 9-9 or down 9-8, and you have to have an expert P who understands he has to loosen his calling range up in this spots. The chances of having an expert P is probably around 1%, maybe even less. So if one said, '"there should be no exceptions", always lead the Left in this spot' they would be correct over 99% of the time. Not a bad heuristic! But there's almost always exceptions at the margins.

EDIT: actually there's more cases, since you can expect an expert to loosen up his range whenever he's in a closeout situation. So say your team is up 9-3, the expert will be calling with that same hand, and thus that's another spot not to lead the Left.

EDIT2: I'd call with that hand up 8-2 also. Clubs is the best I got and I block nothing in the 2nd round. It's basically a semi-donate from S2. So there's even more potential spots to not lead the Left.

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Unread post by RedDuke » Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:32 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:44 pm
Dlan wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:41 pm
There should be no exceptions. It is doubtful an "expert" would order their partner with only the right and nothing to back it up. This would be especially true at a score of 9 to 8.
At 9-9 or down 9-8, say the upcard is the (Card_10-C)

If an expert has a hand like (Card_J-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_10-H) (Card_9-H)

He must call. Clubs is the best he's got, and if the dealer passes it's probably game over. Hence there are times when the dealer should not lead the Left. But these cases are extremely rare. Number one, they only occur at 9-9 or down 9-8, and you have to have an expert P who understands he has to loosen his calling range up in this spots. The chances of having an expert P is probably around 1%, maybe even less. So if one said, '"there should be no exceptions", always lead the Left in this spot' they would be correct over 99% of the time. Not a bad heuristic! But there's almost always exceptions at the margins.

EDIT: actually there's more cases, since you can expect an expert to loosen up his range whenever he's in a closeout situation. So say your team is up 9-3, the expert will be calling with that same hand, and thus that's another spot not to lead the Left.

EDIT2: I'd call with that hand up 8-2 also. Clubs is the best I got and I block nothing in the 2nd round. It's basically a semi-donate from S2. So there's even more potential spots to not lead the Left.
Even then, it's not cut and dry, Wes.

Say you're the dealer... upcard is (Card_J-S)

I'm in first seat with (Card_J-C) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_A-H) (Card_9-D) . Score is 9-8 in your favor.

I'm gonna pass here hoping to sandbag you. I figure you won't pass on the right and I've got a pretty solid hand to hold you at one point even if you pass on the right. I'm hoping to euchre for the win.

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:33 pm

[quote="Wes (aka the legend)" post_id=3741 time=1613177091 user_id=336]
[quote=Dlan post_id=3740 time=1613173306 user_id=2]
There should be no exceptions. It is doubtful an "expert" would order their partner with only the right and nothing to back it up. This would be especially true at a score of 9 to 8.
[/quote]

At 9-9 or down 9-8, say the upcard is the (Card_10-C)

If an expert has a hand like (Card_J-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_10-H) (Card_9-H)

He must call. Clubs is the best he's got, and if the dealer passes it's probably game over. Hence there are times when the dealer should not lead the Left. But these cases are extremely rare. Number one, they only occur at 9-9 or down 9-8, and you have to have an expert P who understands he has to loosen his calling range up in this spots. The chances of having an expert P is probably around 1%, maybe even less. So if one said, '"there should be no exceptions", always lead the Left in this spot' they would be correct over 99% of the time. Not a bad heuristic! But there's almost always exceptions at the margins.

EDIT: actually there's more cases, since you can expect an expert to loosen up his range whenever he's in a closeout situation. So say your team is up 9-3, the expert will be calling with that same hand, and thus that's another spot not to lead the Left.

EDIT2: I'd call with that hand up 8-2 also. Clubs is the best I got and I block nothing in the 2nd round. It's basically a semi-donate from S2. So there's even more potential spots to not lead the Left.
[/quote]




In these types of scenarios I agree Wes.


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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:42 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:32 pm
Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:44 pm
Dlan wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:41 pm
There should be no exceptions. It is doubtful an "expert" would order their partner with only the right and nothing to back it up. This would be especially true at a score of 9 to 8.
At 9-9 or down 9-8, say the upcard is the (Card_10-C)

If an expert has a hand like (Card_J-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_10-H) (Card_9-H)

He must call. Clubs is the best he's got, and if the dealer passes it's probably game over. Hence there are times when the dealer should not lead the Left. But these cases are extremely rare. Number one, they only occur at 9-9 or down 9-8, and you have to have an expert P who understands he has to loosen his calling range up in this spots. The chances of having an expert P is probably around 1%, maybe even less. So if one said, '"there should be no exceptions", always lead the Left in this spot' they would be correct over 99% of the time. Not a bad heuristic! But there's almost always exceptions at the margins.

EDIT: actually there's more cases, since you can expect an expert to loosen up his range whenever he's in a closeout situation. So say your team is up 9-3, the expert will be calling with that same hand, and thus that's another spot not to lead the Left.

EDIT2: I'd call with that hand up 8-2 also. Clubs is the best I got and I block nothing in the 2nd round. It's basically a semi-donate from S2. So there's even more potential spots to not lead the Left.
Even then, it's not cut and dry, Wes.

Say you're the dealer... upcard is (Card_J-S)

I'm in first seat with (Card_J-C) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_A-H) (Card_9-D) . Score is 9-8 in your favor.

I'm gonna pass here hoping to sandbag you. I figure you won't pass on the right and I've got a pretty solid hand to hold you at one point even if you pass on the right. I'm hoping to euchre for the win.
This is a completely non-analogous situation but I don't mind talking about it! Up 9-8, I agree with your bag, but your assumptions are off a bit. Up 9-8, S2 and the dealer have to play straight up, so the idea that I won't pass the Right is a bit off here. Both S2 and the dealer can't just call willy-nilly here. Up 9-8 is a completely different animal than down 9-8 or tied 9-9. That said, your bag is still correct becuz I will be ordering up the Right with enough legit hands to make your play worth it. Plus if things go wrong, you still have a solid Next call.

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