OE games 1-25 - Gone fishing

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Dlan
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OE games 1-25 - Gone fishing

Unread post by Dlan » Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:11 pm

And hooked two big ones on a single cast

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https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D



Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:40 am

S2 misplayed the hand. He should've played under with the QH on the first lead. As I've said before, there are many spots where it is correct NOT to play under with R+1 but that is not the case with L+1. One should always play under with L+1 except for those scenarios where you have L+K and someone leads the Ace of trump.

S4 also made a mistake on the 2nd lead. Once trump has been led and S4 takes the first trick he should not be leading the turned down suit. That's leading to the strength of S1's team as his team is more likely to have the boss offsuit spade than S4's team given that S4's team passed on spades.

With the lead in the wrong spot putting S1 in an uncomfortable semi-squeeze situation, plus the good possibility that S2 can still have more trump given that S3 showed void in trump on the first lead, S4 should try to create a situation where S1 gets overtrumped. So this makes the turned down suit spade lead bad for 2 reasons: 1) S1's team is most likely to have the boss spade and 2) S1 is unlikely to be void in spades and thus this is the worst suit to lead in hopes of S1 getting overtrumped on 2nd street. S4 should instead lead his dirtiest suit, I.E. lead the 9D.

Notice if S4 correctly leads the 9D on the 2nd street the possibility of a euchre opens up whether S2 correctly plays under on the first lead or not (I still view S2's mistake as a bigger one tho becuz it is so fundamental). Of course If I was in S1 I wouldn't fall for this trap. Knowing the precariousness of my situation, I would throw my loser QC off on S4's 9D lead hoping my P can pick up that trick and thus safely avoid this ambush. Then S2 is forced to burn his last trump, the lead is in the right spot, and the last 3 tricks are mine. But that's not the point.

Many players would mistakenly trump the diamond lead, get overtrumped by S2 and then get euchred as S2 leads his AC on 3rd street. When S2 and S4 play the hand correctly they put pressure on S1 to play the hand well to escape with a point and when you put pressure on humans to play well they often make mistakes. Looking back at the actual hand, S2 and S4's play actually made life super easy for S1. Never make life easy for the enemy!

RedDuke
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Unread post by RedDuke » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:20 am

S2 made a huge mistake as was correctly pointed out by Wes. S1 crossed the river and then led the Ace of Trump. The dealer turned down a black card. That plus crossing the river means that there's a pretty high chance that the dealer holds the other red jack. S2 should have played second hand low here and let the dealer take the trick with the right. That would leave S2 with the boss trump, setting up the maker to be euchred. If all the dealer has is the right, then overtrumping the maker on the first lead could very well result in your team burning all their boss cards.
With the lead in the wrong spot putting S1 in an uncomfortable semi-squeeze situation, plus the good possibility that S2 can still have more trump given that S3 showed void in trump on the first lead, S4 should try to create a situation where S1 gets overtrumped.
S1 called reverse next. With a reverse next call, there's always a pretty high probability that the enemy will have more trump than you do. His hand was arguably a bit weak for a reverse next call. He was hoping that the opposition would misplay the hand and burn all their boss trumps on that ace lead, which they did.

S1 got really lucky here that S2 screwed up. If he would have thrown under that Ace, his team would have had the best chance of securing a euchre. Admittedly, the maker probably still would have made a point here since the enemy was weak in hearts too but still.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:34 am

RedDuke wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:20 am
S2 made a huge mistake as was correctly pointed out by Wes. S1 crossed the river and then led the Ace of Trump. The dealer turned down a black card. That plus crossing the river means that there's a pretty high chance that the dealer holds the other red jack. S2 should have played second hand low here and let the dealer take the trick with the right. That would leave S2 with the boss trump, setting up the maker to be euchred. If all the dealer has is the right, then overtrumping the maker on the first lead could very well result in your team burning all their boss cards.
This is off subject but what you wrote reminded me of a working hypothesis I go with. This has to do with scenarios where S1 calls and we are in S2 with R+1. IMO, when S1 calls next and leads it we SHOULD NOT play under with our R+1 unless we have precisely R+Ace in trump. Too often playing under in that spot allows S3 to grab a key trick to save his team. I can't tell you how many times my BS next calls were saved by S2 playing under with his R+1. I don't have definitive proof but I'd bet a lot of money I'm right on this. The mentioned exception is when S2 has R+Ace. Now I play under with the ace. It's just too tempting to try to grab that first trick with the Ace and still have the boss trump in my pocket to use as I wish. This play really only burns me when S3 has an unguarded Left, but often times the Left will be in the makers hand.

Now if S1 crosses the river then that's a different story. Now I would always play under with R+1 becuz the chances my P has the Left increase a bit.
RedDuke wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:20 am
S1 called reverse next. With a reverse next call, there's always a pretty high probability that the enemy will have more trump than you do. His hand was arguably a bit weak for a reverse next call. He was hoping that the opposition would misplay the hand and burn all their boss trumps on that ace lead, which they did.
I would disagree that this hand is arguably a bit weak for a reverse Next call. Yeah it's marginal but we still have 3 trump + an off ace. This hand still scores a point alot and passing should be out of the question when we only block 1 out of 3 suits. BTW even without the off ace I still think this hand is a must call. We still have 3 trump, and the cost of passing is high in this spot. The gamble is worth it.

This is why "euchre" is the perfect name for this game. There are so many spots where I don't wanna call but I gotta call becuz passing is riskier than calling. IOW quite often you have to run right into a euchre whether you like it or not becuz the alternative (passing) has a higher -EV. IOW the theoretical cost of passing is often high enough in euchre that it often pays to play like an aggrotard and hope to get lucky. Contrast that with Holdem poker. Now the cost of passing, I.E. folding preflop, is so small it pays to play tight and wait for a real hand.

The problem with most euchre players is they play euchre as if they are playing holdem poker where passing is close to 0EV. So they sit around and wait for a real hand not realizing how much those passes cost their team. Ever notice when players call something and get euchred they often say "Sorry P" even when they did nothing wrong but when they pass in the 2nd round and the opponent gets a 4 point loner (or even 2 pts indicating they passed a freeroll call) they never say "Sorry P" when that's EXACTLY when they SHOULD be sorry! I've played around 25K games of euchre in my life and NOT ONCE has someone said "Sorry P" in that spot. Such a shame!
RedDuke wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:20 am
S1 got really lucky here that S2 screwed up. If he would have thrown under that Ace, his team would have had the best chance of securing a euchre. Admittedly, the maker probably still would have made a point here since the enemy was weak in hearts too but still.
Yep, if the maker plays the hand well he will make the point no matter what his opponents do. The problem is with the way S2 and S4 played this hand, the maker didn't even have to play it well to score a point. Like I said before, when you put pressure on humans to play well, mistakes will happen. Even the best players will make some mistakes when you constantly force them to play perfectly. That's why it's important to always think about every play you make in a hand. There should be a reason behind every lead one makes on defense. Nothing should be done randomly.

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