OE games 1-11 Total messup

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Dlan
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OE games 1-11 Total messup

Unread post by Dlan » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:39 pm

As this hand shows, it is important to maintain focus on the hand even when it doesn’t play out exactly as planned. Total mess up by south. 2 points for the opponents plus an unhappy partner.

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https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D



RedDuke
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Unread post by RedDuke » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:58 pm

I can just see North start screaming across the table when he saw that (Card_Q-H) !

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LeftyK
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Unread post by LeftyK » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:49 pm

this should also be posted in the beginners lounge :) Notice too, though that East makes a huge mistake to by not keeping the KH at least another hand. This would have set the callers.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:06 am

LeftyK wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:49 pm
this should also be posted in the beginners lounge :) Notice too, though that East makes a huge mistake to by not keeping the KH at least another hand. This would have set the callers.
Yeah I threw away the KH one street too early. Should've thrown it away on 3rd street (IOW on the AS lead). That said, whether I throw away the KH on 2nd street or 3rd street, that correlates heavily with me not covering hearts, which means my P should not be leading a heart on 4th street. He should lead his diamond instead.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:33 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:06 am
LeftyK wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:49 pm
this should also be posted in the beginners lounge :) Notice too, though that East makes a huge mistake to by not keeping the KH at least another hand. This would have set the callers.
Yeah I threw away the KH one street too early. Should've thrown it away on 3rd street (IOW on the AS lead). That said, whether I throw away the KH on 2nd street or 3rd street, that correlates heavily with me not covering hearts, which means my P should not be leading a heart on 4th street. He should lead his diamond instead.
Actually it would be unfair to say my P misplayed this hand. In this kind've spot where the S1-R2 maker is double leading boss trump and then and off ace, the only way he has a chance of getting euchred is if his off Ace gets trumped by someone (S2 or S4) who has 3 trump. Since S4 doesn't have 3 trump in this spot, his job, I.E my job, is to hold to my suited ace (ADXD) til the last 2 streets hoping to pick up the last 2 tricks those times S2 trumps in on 3rd street and has no where to go.

This means the cards I throw away on the 2nd lead and the 3rd lead will tend to be suits I am NOT covering since if I had a suited ace in those suits I would not want to break it up. But notice what happens when I throw the KH away one street too early. I now send an ambiguous message to my P. Throwing away the KH away on the 2nd lead says I'm not covering hearts, but throwing away the diamond on the 3rd lead says I'm not covering diamonds when in fact I am. My P has a low heart and diamond left. He has to make a decision here and the information he got from me, his P, doesn't really help him much.

Now let's look at how much easier S2's fateful decision should have been. If I don't throw away the KH one street too early here's how the hand plays out. I throw away a low diamond on the second lead suggesting I'm not covering diamonds, then on the 3rd lead--the lead where my P, S2, trumps in and takes control of the hand--I throw away the KH, correctly holding to my suited ADXD. When I throw away the KH in this spot I am EMPHATICALLY telling my P, "I am not covering hearts" becuz if I had AHKHQH or AHKHAD, I would throw away the AH every time in that spot to let my P know I AM covering hearts. IOW when I throw away the KH in that spot, that means I can't have the AH, therefore I am not covering hearts. So even though I threw away a low diamond on an earlier street suggesting I'm not covering diamonds, S2 now knows unequivocally that diamonds is his best lead on 4th street becuz I have sent him a crystal clear message I am NOT covering hearts and there's still a chance I could have started out with a tripleton ace of diamonds.

Ok so throwing away the KH on 3rd street--when my P takes control of the hand--sends a nice clear message I'm not covering hearts but what if I didn't have the KH? What if I had this configuration instead:

(Card_A-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_J-D) (Card_Q-H)

The answer is a heuristic needs to be worked out between this partnership and the easiest one would be this: "When it isn't clear which suit S2 should lead DO NOT lead the suit S4 played on 3rd street". Knowing S2 is gonna use that rule of thumb, S4 would throw away a low diamond on 2nd street (JD) and then throw away the QH on 3rd street. Once S2 sees the QH he knows not to lead hearts if he can help it.

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:14 pm

One more example. This time S4 has to follow suit with a spade on the 3rd trick. So let's say, S4 plays a diamond on the 2nd trick and a spade on the 3rd trick. After S2 takes control of the hand on the 3rd lead, what should he lead to try to hit his partner? The answer is simple: lead the suit S4 hasn't played yet. So if S2 sees S4 play a diamond and a spade, S2 now knows his best lead is a heart. Why? It all goes back to understanding what S4's mission is in this spot: to hold to his suited ace hoping to take the last 2 tricks if necessary. Since S4 is generally disinclined to break up a suited ace combo, the suits already seen by S4 suggest he's not covering those suits. So S2 should lead the suit S4 hasn't shown yet hoping that's where his suited ace is at if he has one.

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LeftyK
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Unread post by LeftyK » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:02 pm

IDK, I played two hands this morning with one of my favorite online partner's and in the 1st situation I did just that on 4th street; I led what my P didn't have and we set them. But in the other here was the entire hand in essence. me: S1R1 score 7-9 (their lead) the dealer who is RHO has the right as the upcard but S2 calls it into his hand. I lead my middle trump (I held AQ10) and have a two tiny 3 suited hand (10H,9S. On 3rd trick I took control but tricks were 2-1 our favor and my partner tossed a 9H. Trumps were all gone at this point and I know the tiny suited card I play will determine the euchre with almost certainty. had I played the 10H my P had the ace and it would have been 9-9 my deal.....the point is I still thinks it's a guess all the way 50/50 in those situations.

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:23 pm

LeftyK wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:02 pm
But in the other here was the entire hand in essence. me: S1R1 score 7-9 (their lead) the dealer who is RHO has the right as the upcard but S2 calls it into his hand. I lead my middle trump (I held AQ10) and have a two tiny 3 suited hand (10H,9S. On 3rd trick I took control but tricks were 2-1 our favor and my partner tossed a 9H. Trumps were all gone at this point and I know the tiny suited card I play will determine the euchre with almost certainty. had I played the 10H my P had the ace and it would have been 9-9 my deal.....the point is I still thinks it's a guess all the way 50/50 in those situations.
That's a completely different dynamic. Whenever a team has 1 trick in on defense and a partner has taken control of the hand with a boss trump--or possibly boss trump--lead to clean out the enemy for the 2nd trick, the other P should ALWAYS play the suit he is covering on that clean-out lead to tell his P where to go next. In this spot there is no reason to hold to a suited ace. Your team gets 2 points on a euchre whether you get 3 tricks or 4 tricks. So your P should tell you right away what suit he's boss in. So when you took control of the hand, and your team only needs one more trick for the euchre, the suit your P played on THAT lead--hearts--is the suit you must lead next.

Here's a couple examples. Say I'm your P in that spot and these are my 3 remaining cards:

(Card_A-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_Q-D)

I should play the (Card_A-H) on your clean-out lead.

(Card_A-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_Q-D)

I should play the (Card_9-H) on your clean-out lead.

IOW I should tell you what I'm covering right away cuz we only need 1 more trick. And If I don't do that for you, you legit have a right to yell at me! :)

Now lets go back to what I was talking about before. There are spots in this game where all competent players are gonna hold to their suited ace, so much so that even if you're playing with a total stranger you can use this hand reading logic to guide your play and your "guesses" will turn out correct a lot more than 50-50. Even bad players will often unconsciously hold to their suited aces in these spots. Ok well I already talked about one spot. Let's do another common spot!

Dealer upcard is the (Card_9-C)

You're in the 1S with (Card_J-C) (Card_J-S) (Card_A-S) (Card_9-D) (Card_9-H)

Everyone passes and you call Next in the 2nd round. You lead the JS and your P follows suit, then you lead the JC and your P plays the (Card_10-D) , then you lead the AS and your P plays a (Card_10-C) . Your best lead on 4th street is the 9H, the suit your P hasn't shown yet becuz this is one of those spots where he should hold to his suited ace to maximize his teams chances of getting 2 points. Since your P is averse to breaking up a suited ace in this spot, him playing the TD and the TC suggests he's not covering those suits.

The one confusing aspect of this spot is IF your P is void in trump on your first lead, then he SHOULD break up his suited ace on your first lead telling you right away what suit he is covering. The logic being: You called presumably needing his help, and he has no trump, which means this is now a precarious spot where you guys could get euchred. You P's job in this spot is to abandon the idea of going for 2 and do the best he can to ensure you guys scratch a point. So on your first lead he's gonna try to tell you what he's covering right away. So if a strong P has a hand like this:

(Card_A-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_Q-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-D)

He will play the AH on your JS lead.

Or if he has this:

(Card_A-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_Q-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-D)

He will play the 9H on your JS lead.

What if you don't have a heart to lead later in the hand? Well on your 2nd trump lead your P will always play the suit he is NOT covering so that should guide your play on 4th street.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:29 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:23 pm
Now lets go back to what I was talking about before. There are spots in this game where all competent players are gonna hold to their suited ace, so much so that even if you're playing with a total stranger you can use this hand reading logic to guide your play and your "guesses" will turn out correct a lot more than 50-50. Even bad players will often unconsciously hold to their suited aces in these spots. Ok well I already talked about one spot. Let's do another common spot!

Dealer upcard is the (Card_9-C)

You're in the 1S with (Card_J-C) (Card_J-S) (Card_A-S) (Card_9-D) (Card_9-H)

Everyone passes and you call Next in the 2nd round. You lead the JS and your P follows suit, then you lead the JC and your P plays the (Card_10-D) , then you lead the AS and your P plays a (Card_10-C) . Your best lead on 4th street is the 9H, the suit your P hasn't shown yet becuz this is one of those spots where he should hold to his suited ace to maximize his teams chances of getting 2 points. Since your P is averse to breaking up a suited ace in this spot, him playing the TD and the TC suggests he's not covering those suits.
Here's a classic example of the above hand reading concept:

Image

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

S1 calls Next, leads the Right, and his P follows suit. S1 then leads the Left, and his P plays the TS. S1 then leads his last trump and his P plays the KC. S1 has a diamond and a club left on 4th street. Which suit should he play? Well since S3, his P, is trying to hold to a suited ace in this spot, the fact that he played a spade on 2nd street and a club on 3rd street suggests he is not covering spades or clubs. Therefore S1 should play the suit his P hasn't shown yet, the diamond.

Furthermore when S3, S1's P, plays the KC on 3rd street he is emphatically telling S1 he is not covering clubs. For if he was, that would mean he has a hand like AcKcXc or AcKc + some other boss card, and in those cases S3 would play the AC to let his P know he IS covering clubs. So when S3 plays the KC he can never have the AC if he is playing well. Unfortunately S1 didn't read the hand properly and led the club on 4th street, but I am confident he will get it right the next time!

BTW this hand reading trick works well even if you're playing with an unknown partner or a poor playing partner because most euchre players instinctively hold to their suited ace in this spot in my experience. Where this hand reading trick fails is when your non-expert partner has a configuration like AcKcXc and they predictably don't play their AC to let you know they are covering clubs sending you a false message that they are not covering clubs.

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