Weak Next Calls: What to lead

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jblowery
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 am

Weak Next Calls: What to lead

Unread post by jblowery » Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:41 pm

Seems like this is one of the areas where I struggle the most. When I'm in seat 1 and I have no defense in reverse next but I'm also weak in next but strong enough to make a call. Let's say hearts is turned down by the dealer. Here are some examples of (at least somewhat) weak next calls. Assume the cards that aren't showing are junk cards of other suites.

(Card_Q-D) (Card_10-D) (just two low next cards)
(Card_Q-D) (Card_A-S) (single next with singleton green ace)
(Card_Q-D) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-S)
(Card_Q-D) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S)
(Card_Q-D) (Card_A-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_10-H) (tripleton next ace - not worth much)
(Card_J-D) (Card_A-S) (right bower w/ singleton green)
(Card_J-D) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-S) (if I had a 3rd spade I'd probably call that instead of diamonds)
(Card_J-D) (Card_10-D)
(Card_J-D) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S) (I've typically passed here actually since I have 2 of each in reverse next)

In general, I haven't led trump in these situations. Seems like that has worked best. I've only led an ace if it is very strong, such as a singleton next or doubleton green. The (Card_J-D) (Card_A-S) combination here is a tough one for me. because I probably have 2 tricks but that 3rd is in a lot of doubt if I lead the (Card_J-D) first.

As a bonus, here's one when you're the dealer and after you've trumped the first trick with your (Card_9-H). What to lead round 2. That (Card_A-S) isn't so strong since it is a tripleton. I've typically led that card on the 2nd trick in these types of situations because I know at least one of my opponents probably doesn't have a spade. Then my p still has a great chance of helping me out.

(Card_J-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S)



Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:41 pm

jblowery wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:41 pm
Seems like this is one of the areas where I struggle the most. When I'm in seat 1 and I have no defense in reverse next but I'm also weak in next but strong enough to make a call.

Just pointing out that this is not the way I approach this spot. I never think about "Am I strong enough to call?" unless we're talking about those tight late game scores like up 9-8, tied 8-8 and maybe up 8-7, down 7-8, and 7-7. Other than that, if I don't have reverse next blocked I'm calling something and if it's close in all directions then I'm calling Next. The strength of my actual hand is irrelevant. My obligation is to do what's best for my team not what's best for my actual hand. Euchre is romantic like that. S1 often has to take it on the chin, taking a good euchre for his team. Yes there's such a thing as a good euchre! S1 is the game manager of his team, the most important position in the game. There is lots of luck in euchre, and S1's job is to manage that luck, smoothing out as much variance as possible by playing strong defense, donating correctly in the first rd, and calling Next or something in the 2nd rd--even with very little--becuz reverse next loners should not happen on S1's watch.
jblowery wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:41 pm
Let's say hearts is turned down by the dealer. Here are some examples of (at least somewhat) weak next calls. Assume the cards that aren't showing are junk cards of other suites.

(Card_Q-D) (Card_10-D) (just two low next cards)

If I have no voids I lead trump. With a void I tend not to, then I lead some non-turned down suit. This spot is controversial to me. Even with a void I don't think it's clear what lead is best between trump and not trump but that's what I would do.
jblowery wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:41 pm
(Card_Q-D) (Card_A-S) (single next with singleton green ace)

If you have an offsuit ace or an offsuit boss equivalent always lead trump. BTW if you call Next with one trump and no off aces, always lead trump. Always lead with one EVEN IF all you have is the Right. You really need to hit your P here to make it so give him the lead he would want if he had called it.
jblowery wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:41 pm
(Card_Q-D) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-S)

Always lead with one or always lead trump when you have an off ace to promote. You pick :)
jblowery wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:41 pm
(Card_Q-D) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S)

We would not call Next out of this configuration. Call spades and lead the 9s. Always lead trump from 3 when you don't hold the Right. If you hold R+2 there are times where not leading trump may be best.
jblowery wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:41 pm
(Card_Q-D) (Card_A-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_10-H) (tripleton next ace - not worth much)

If you have no where to go in the 2nd round--and this hand counts as "no where to go"--then you should not be passing up a 3 trump call in the first rd. Call hearts in the first rd except when the upcard is a Jack. Yes it's marginal but sometimes you have to choose the least worst option. Euchre is fun like that. But say you correctly bagged the JH and the dealer unfortunately turned it down. Now call next and it's back to always lead with one or always lead trump when you have an off ace to promote (I don't care how dirty it is).
jblowery wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:41 pm
(Card_J-D) (Card_A-S) (right bower w/ singleton green)

Always lead with one or always lead trump with an off ace to promote.
jblowery wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:41 pm
(Card_J-D) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-S) (if I had a 3rd spade I'd probably call that instead of diamonds)

You just alluded to the one hand that gives me a headache! When the dealer turns down a heart and we have a hand like:

(Card_J-D) (Card_A-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_10-H)

Should we call diamonds or spades? IDK but I tend to call spades. One thing I don't do is consider passing after red was turned down and I have no clubs in my hand.
jblowery wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:41 pm
(Card_J-D) (Card_10-D)

With R+1+nothing else, don't lead trump. Lead a non-turned down suit. With this marginal but decent holding--the kind of holding where we don't have to hit our P that well to scratch a pt--the last thing we want to see is our team spending 2 trump on 1 lead.
jblowery wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:41 pm
(Card_J-D) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S) (I've typically passed here actually since I have 2 of each in reverse next)

I don't pass in that spot. Call Next and always lead with one. At the very least, never pass in this spot with a nice lead.
jblowery wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:41 pm
In general, I haven't led trump in these situations. Seems like that has worked best. I've only led an ace if it is very strong, such as a singleton next or doubleton green. The (Card_J-D) (Card_A-S) combination here is a tough one for me. because I probably have 2 tricks but that 3rd is in a lot of doubt if I lead the (Card_J-D) first.
It is difficult to KNOW what is really best. I'll grant you that. You can read my post as what I would do, not necessarily what is correct. I mean I'm betting that my lines are correct but we won't really know until they are put to the test in that mythical euchre simulator.
jblowery wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:41 pm
As a bonus, here's one when you're the dealer and after you've trumped the first trick with your (Card_9-H). What to lead round 2. That (Card_A-S) isn't so strong since it is a tripleton. I've typically led that card on the 2nd trick in these types of situations because I know at least one of my opponents probably doesn't have a spade. Then my p still has a great chance of helping me out.

(Card_J-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S)
The "should we lead the Right and sell out on our tripleton off ace" is a controversial spot that has always bothered me. I've talked to other strong players and get mixed answered. It's close/debatable. I know Edward tends to lead the Right in that spot, and I too lead the Right in that spot, but I am not confident that is correct. I do lead the off ace if I have a quadrupleton off ace, I.E. we have a tripleton Ace of spades but we also threw away a spade when we picked up. Same with the equivalent tripleton Next Ace (I lead the Ace). With a quadrupleton off ace, I give up on the notion of trying to protect/promote it.

jblowery
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 am

Unread post by jblowery » Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:06 pm

Great. Thank you very much. Helpful tips and explanations.

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