OE members games from WoCG - 12/13

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Dlan
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OE members games from WoCG - 12/13

Unread post by Dlan » Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:54 am

Here is another hand that was sent in. West dealt and turned down the nine of diamonds. North passed and east called clubs. West was wondering if east could have played it differently and thus avoided being euchred.

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Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:57 pm

East should have trumped in and not laid off. Only time Im laying off in a suit lead of what the dealer turned down is the jack of that suit. Have to trump in here. After that I personally would have lead the ace of clubs. However leading trump back or the heart still net you the point.


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jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:04 am

Definitely. By playing off on the first trick, E is both betting on his discarded suit to be the correct choice, and for his p to be void in diamonds. S correctly leads back a spade after seeing a heart discarded, but I'm curious why N decided to play off on the K, as E could have still been holding the A of spades. However, the situation is clear, with 3 trump (including AK) E needed to trump in with the 10 on the suit lead that his opponents have the highest chance of holding, and the lead the A, because then his p can play under if he only has a protected left, and if they hold the right + one, then they can decide how to play the hand, but a K lead would not convey this information.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:29 pm

I'm skeptical of the idea that S2 misplayed this hand. He needs help from his P and he played off and short suited himself on the first trick. Seems standard to me. That said, I am open to the idea that I am wrong in this spot. Specifically the idea that we SHOULD NOT play off if S1 leads the turned down suit but otherwise SHOULD if S1 leads another suit. I'm not saying that's the correct approach but it could be. I need to think about this some more. Crunch some math. Questions like what is the probability our P will be either void in diamonds and has at least 1 trump or have the boss diamond may be relevant. (we already know from hand reading logic our P either has 1 diamond or no diamonds)

That said, EVEN IF it is true that S2 should trump S1's diamond lead, I'm still skeptical of the idea that we should now lead trump.

Other comments on the hand:

1st round: Everyone's pass is standard

2nd round: If I'm S1 I'm calling Clubs and leading a heart. I'm not passing in this spot when I only block 1 out of 3 remaining suits. Yes, I'm crossing the river with R+1+nothing else (except a void in spades). Yes it's dicey, but the risk is worth it to me. It's not a call I wanna make, it's a call I feel I have to make.

In the actual hand, S1 made a mistake in leading the turned down suit, and "S3 correctly leads back a spade after seeing a heart discarded" by the maker as Jspectre astutely pointed out. That in itself is a very important lead on trick 2 that many rec players mess up. A bad lead in that spot usually kills the euchre chance.

Jspectre brought up the fact that S1 didn't use his Qc to go for the euchre on the spade lead. And Jspectre's instinct is right on. That is a mistake by S1. For all S1 knows, this may be his team's only chance for that coveted euchre. S2 could easily have the As. S1 needs to use that Qc and trump in now.

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Dlan
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Unread post by Dlan » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:13 am

With west turning down a diamond and first passing, east correctly called clubs. The problem east faces is he only has one sure trick in his hand. Both off-suit 10’s are sure losers and then there are the two trump bowers to worry about. Sometimes you’re just euchred.

jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:00 pm

For the record, I would most likely have played this hand very similarly, and got euchred because of it, which leads me to believe that playing off with 3 trump is simply incorrect in this spot. Unless my p holds the Ace in the turned down suit, I have nothing to lose by trumping in and allowing him to play off instead, which is a more viable strategy than playing off one of my 2 suits and allowing for the possibility of the opposition retaining the lead. There's also the chance that my p can signal he is holding an AK combo if he chooses to play off an ace, and makes a trump lead an even more viable strategy. I think Wes brings up a very good point that there's not a clear cut answer as to whether a trump lead back is appropriate, and there are certainly scenarios where that can backfire, such as if your p holds only 1 trump and has no aces, then a protected left + ace from one of the opponents could spell disaster.

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LeftyK
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Unread post by LeftyK » Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:04 pm

East makes the correct call. But as many practice hands I've played and rewound , next to never does it pay to skip playing trump on any S1 lead S2 has none of AND when S2 calls trump. Yeah S1 made the cardinal sin of leading what got turned down, but You also have to assumed everyone at the table is four suited when second round calls occur, (especially "Hoyle" calls). trump with King and lead the ace of trumps after. You gotta own it and hope your P can catch a trick somewhere. (Which they will IF trumps are led). Any other lead by S2T2 is dangerous. ...Wes is also correct in his call of clubs S1R2. But the team that gets to 8 first usually wins (not always) because you put pressure on the next hand. This was a pivotal hand getting to 8 first.

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