Game tied at 8 all, what was the right call here?

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jspectre
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:04 am

Game tied at 8 all, what was the right call here?

Unread post by jspectre » Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:42 am

I'm in S2 and I ordered up (Card_Q-S) into my partners hand.

My hand was the following. (Card_A-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_10-D)

I block nothing in next with this hand (or anything in the other 2 suits), but I do have chances of taking a trick with either the As or with the A of trump if S1 doesn't hold both bowers. The problem with this is that the opponents will still be on 9 with their deal coming up if they're allowed to make a point. There's also the issue of not having much of anywhere to go in the 2nd round, but in hindsight maybe it was better to hope for a possible euchre in next if S1 overextended, and just try to call reverse next with a low trump and 2 off Aces. The opponent unfortunately had a stronger hand in Spades than he would have had in Clubs, but I think he still would have called next and made the point, because my p was sitting on at least 3-4 red cards and had no bowers in black, although I don't recall exactly. We ended up getting set, if I hadn't already made that clear, I think we only took 1 trick as well.



RedDuke
Posts: 444
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Unread post by RedDuke » Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:01 pm

You have just as much strength in next as you have in spades. Unless you have reason to fear that third seat would have called here, I probably would have passed on it and let my partner decide what to do. If he's got any strength at all in spades then he'll pick up and create a void.

This is one of those horrible spots. As you correctly point out, you don't block anything. However, this hand is probably good for at least one trick unless somebody has a lay-down loner in hearts. So if you do end up with first seat calling then you can probably limit the score to 8-9 next hand (especially since your partner probably has some firepower in red if he passes). Yes, it will be their deal but that's still better than the game being over if you get set.

I think that passing and letting your partner decide is the best course of action here. You've got enough strength here to help your partner out if he calls and enough strength to defend against a first seat call in pretty much any suit.

I would pass.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1301
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:56 pm

jspectre wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:42 am
I'm in S2 and I ordered up (Card_Q-S) into my partners hand.

My hand was the following. (Card_A-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_10-D)

I block nothing in next with this hand (or anything in the other 2 suits), but I do have chances of taking a trick with either the As or with the A of trump if S1 doesn't hold both bowers. The problem with this is that the opponents will still be on 9 with their deal coming up if they're allowed to make a point. There's also the issue of not having much of anywhere to go in the 2nd round, but in hindsight maybe it was better to hope for a possible euchre in next if S1 overextended, and just try to call reverse next with a low trump and 2 off Aces. The opponent unfortunately had a stronger hand in Spades than he would have had in Clubs, but I think he still would have called next and made the point, because my p was sitting on at least 3-4 red cards and had no bowers in black, although I don't recall exactly. We ended up getting set, if I hadn't already made that clear, I think we only took 1 trick as well.
I hate this kind of spot. Feels like your f**ked no matter what you do. And the greatest mindf**k of all is odds are you are playing with a P who will pass R+1+nothing (even R+1+an off ace!) or L+1+an off ace with no help in other suits, and hell maybe even 3 low trump+no off aces. And it just feels so devastating when your P passes in this spot, especially when you don't really have much of a 2nd round hand (calling diamonds with 1 low trump + 2 off aces is a fine reverse next call in most spots, but it kinda sux at 8-8)

Your first rd hand is also so marginal too given how dirty your off ace is. The good news tho is if you pass and your P passes, your team has a good shot at stopping a march from S1 no matter what he calls. If he calls Next you have a good chance at stopping him as long as he doesn't have JJ, and if he calls red you have a decent chance of stopping him with both black aces.

So first round, I think I would pass in this spot. Keep in mind with an expert P it's an easy pass. With a random P who likely passes biddable hands, this is a really tough spot. I don't know what's best but I would pass. The fact that a S1, 2nd rd call is unlikely to march helps me feel decent about this decision.

As far as the decision of what to do when it gets back to us in the 2nd round, once again we are faced with a tough spot. Calling reverse next with one diamond+two off green aces is still very dicey at 8-8. If we pass and S3 calls we again still have a great chance at stopping a march. I'm not gonna lie, I've definitely made a lot of these type of super-marginal calls at 8-8, and I'll probably do it in the future, but I can't really justify it other than to say sometimes I have too much gamble in me! And I have gained nothing in intuition in making these dubious calls. This spot is rare enough and the outcomes I've experienced varied enough that I don't even feel comfortable coming up with a hypothesis for this spot. Also I can say is I think it's best to pass in the first round and the 2nd round in this spot, but I'm far from sure.

Bottom line: I hate 8-8 scenarios, especially with a random P.

jblowery
Posts: 125
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 am

Unread post by jblowery » Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:54 am

I wouldn't order this up at 4-4 either. Would any of you? I know that it is a unique situation when it is 8-8 or 9-8.

I typically order up a low card if I have 2 trump + an off suite ace but 2 problems here. One is that one of my trump is an ace. If another suite becomes trump it is still a strong card (unlike if I had a 10 and king of trump for example). Other issue is that the off suite ace here (clubs) is a weak card. There would only be a total of 5 clubs and with me holding 2 of them there is little to any chance of that (Card_A-C) taking any tricks unless trump is already cleared out and somebody happens to lead a low one later on.

jspectre
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:04 am

Unread post by jspectre » Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:46 pm

jblowery wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:54 am
I wouldn't order this up at 4-4 either. Would any of you? I know that it is a unique situation when it is 8-8 or 9-8.

I typically order up a low card if I have 2 trump + an off suite ace but 2 problems here. One is that one of my trump is an ace. If another suite becomes trump it is still a strong card (unlike if I had a 10 and king of trump for example). Other issue is that the off suite ace here (clubs) is a weak card. There would only be a total of 5 clubs and with me holding 2 of them there is little to any chance of that (Card_A-C) taking any tricks unless trump is already cleared out and somebody happens to lead a low one later on.
Yeah, I'm almost auto passing this at a score like 4-4, but at 8-8 I can't help but think the only out might be to order up and give your p a void, and hopefully squeeze out a point. I feel like every time I pass here they are likely to make a point, and then with their deal at 9-8 it already feels lost to me, most of the time it feels like my opponents always score on their deal in these situations, but that could just be anecdotal, and not really accurate of overall hand progressions.

jspectre
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:04 am

Unread post by jspectre » Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:54 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:56 pm
jspectre wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:42 am
I'm in S2 and I ordered up (Card_Q-S) into my partners hand.

My hand was the following. (Card_A-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_10-D)

I block nothing in next with this hand (or anything in the other 2 suits), but I do have chances of taking a trick with either the As or with the A of trump if S1 doesn't hold both bowers. The problem with this is that the opponents will still be on 9 with their deal coming up if they're allowed to make a point. There's also the issue of not having much of anywhere to go in the 2nd round, but in hindsight maybe it was better to hope for a possible euchre in next if S1 overextended, and just try to call reverse next with a low trump and 2 off Aces. The opponent unfortunately had a stronger hand in Spades than he would have had in Clubs, but I think he still would have called next and made the point, because my p was sitting on at least 3-4 red cards and had no bowers in black, although I don't recall exactly. We ended up getting set, if I hadn't already made that clear, I think we only took 1 trick as well.
I hate this kind of spot. Feels like your f**ked no matter what you do. And the greatest mindf**k of all is odds are you are playing with a P who will pass R+1+nothing (even R+1+an off ace!) or L+1+an off ace with no help in other suits, and hell maybe even 3 low trump+no off aces. And it just feels so devastating when your P passes in this spot, especially when you don't really have much of a 2nd round hand (calling diamonds with 1 low trump + 2 off aces is a fine reverse next call in most spots, but it kinda sux at 8-8)

Your first rd hand is also so marginal too given how dirty your off ace is. The good news tho is if you pass and your P passes, your team has a good shot at stopping a march from S1 no matter what he calls. If he calls Next you have a good chance at stopping him as long as he doesn't have JJ, and if he calls red you have a decent chance of stopping him with both black aces.

So first round, I think I would pass in this spot. Keep in mind with an expert P it's an easy pass. With a random P who likely passes biddable hands, this is a really tough spot. I don't know what's best but I would pass. The fact that a S1, 2nd rd call is unlikely to march helps me feel decent about this decision.

As far as the decision of what to do when it gets back to us in the 2nd round, once again we are faced with a tough spot. Calling reverse next with one diamond+two off green aces is still very dicey at 8-8. If we pass and S3 calls we again still have a great chance at stopping a march. I'm not gonna lie, I've definitely made a lot of these type of super-marginal calls at 8-8, and I'll probably do it in the future, but I can't really justify it other than to say sometimes I have too much gamble in me! And I have gained nothing in intuition in making these dubious calls. This spot is rare enough and the outcomes I've experienced varied enough that I don't even feel comfortable coming up with a hypothesis for this spot. Also I can say is I think it's best to pass in the first round and the 2nd round in this spot, but I'm far from sure.

Bottom line: I hate 8-8 scenarios, especially with a random P.
Yeah, it was just with a random partner, with an expert partner this game would be so much simpler a lot of the time, but I'm always having to play for my partner in a sense, unless they demonstrate early on that they're making some high level plays and understand euchre theory. It definitely felt like a losing scenario here, I just hoped that with two trump and a void myself, in addition to my partners void, that maybe we could squeeze out a point. I have definitely felt like there's scenarios where we could have made the point in "x" suit, even if S1 would have called next and made his point. The weakest aspect of my playing is probably not passing when I should be, though, I have a hard time fighting the feeling that a pass feels like a losing play, even if it's even, and perhaps this was one of those spots. I'm certain they would have made the point, but maybe I just have to hope they either can't make it or we can get a point or a euchre on their deal. I agree with your assessment to pass, but this kind of situation just plain sucks.

RedDuke
Posts: 444
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Unread post by RedDuke » Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:15 pm

jspectre wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:46 pm
jblowery wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:54 am
I wouldn't order this up at 4-4 either. Would any of you? I know that it is a unique situation when it is 8-8 or 9-8.

I typically order up a low card if I have 2 trump + an off suite ace but 2 problems here. One is that one of my trump is an ace. If another suite becomes trump it is still a strong card (unlike if I had a 10 and king of trump for example). Other issue is that the off suite ace here (clubs) is a weak card. There would only be a total of 5 clubs and with me holding 2 of them there is little to any chance of that (Card_A-C) taking any tricks unless trump is already cleared out and somebody happens to lead a low one later on.
Yeah, I'm almost auto passing this at a score like 4-4, but at 8-8 I can't help but think the only out might be to order up and give your p a void, and hopefully squeeze out a point. I feel like every time I pass here they are likely to make a point, and then with their deal at 9-8 it already feels lost to me, most of the time it feels like my opponents always score on their deal in these situations, but that could just be anecdotal, and not really accurate of overall hand progressions.
This is actually the reason why we're saying to pass. You can't afford to get euchred here, but your hand is good enough to prevent the opponents from getting 2 points no matter what they do. Thus, you're still in the game even though they would have the next deal. This hand is not good enough to stop a euchre though on its own.

Basically, you have one trick here in any suit. If your partner has something good in spades, he should pick up. If your partner passes but has something decent in red, you've actually got a good shot at euchring should one of your opponents call red in round 2.

Like Wes, I would probably pass here in round 2, mostly because I've only got 1 trick no matter what trump is, so I don't really have to care what anyone else does. Best to let my partner decide what to do.
Yeah, it was just with a random partner, with an expert partner this game would be so much simpler a lot of the time, but I'm always having to play for my partner in a sense, unless they demonstrate early on that they're making some high level plays and understand euchre theory. It definitely felt like a losing scenario here, I just hoped that with two trump and a void myself, in addition to my partners void, that maybe we could squeeze out a point. I have definitely felt like there's scenarios where we could have made the point in "x" suit, even if S1 would have called next and made his point. The weakest aspect of my playing is probably not passing when I should be, though, I have a hard time fighting the feeling that a pass feels like a losing play, even if it's even, and perhaps this was one of those spots. I'm certain they would have made the point, but maybe I just have to hope they either can't make it or we can get a point or a euchre on their deal. I agree with your assessment to pass, but this kind of situation just plain sucks.
Yeah, sometimes in random games you do get stuck with those partners that are way too timid and pass when they have a biddable hand. This is why it can be critical to watch your partner's play so that you have a reasonable idea of what he might do and bid on.

I would probably pass this no matter who my partner is in both rounds. This is because this particular hand is strong enough to stop the opponents from making march if they do call in either round 1 or round 2 and it is good enough to support my partner in any suit no matter what.

The fact that the upcard is only a queen is critical here for my decision. A queen is not really high enough to help your partner if he has a hand of red cards or clubs. If that upcard was a jack, I would probably call here unless I knew for sure that I had a really good partner that won't pass on a right if he's got any strength.

The fact that my offsuit ace is in next is also critical to my decision to pass. The next suit only has five cards. So the fact that I'm holding two of them means that at least one other player is almost certain to have a void. Thus, my ace is probably not going to take a trick. If that ace was in diamonds or hearts, I'd actually probably order my partner unless I knew for sure that he a strong player.

Knowing your partner makes things easier in pretty much all cases. In your particular scenario, I would pass regardless though.

jspectre
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:04 am

Unread post by jspectre » Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:33 am

RedDuke wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:15 pm
Yeah, sometimes in random games you do get stuck with those partners that are way too timid and pass when they have a biddable hand. This is why it can be critical to watch your partner's play so that you have a reasonable idea of what he might do and bid on.

I would probably pass this no matter who my partner is in both rounds. This is because this particular hand is strong enough to stop the opponents from making march if they do call in either round 1 or round 2 and it is good enough to support my partner in any suit no matter what.

The fact that the upcard is only a queen is critical here for my decision. A queen is not really high enough to help your partner if he has a hand of red cards or clubs. If that upcard was a jack, I would probably call here unless I knew for sure that I had a really good partner that won't pass on a right if he's got any strength.

The fact that my offsuit ace is in next is also critical to my decision to pass. The next suit only has five cards. So the fact that I'm holding two of them means that at least one other player is almost certain to have a void. Thus, my ace is probably not going to take a trick. If that ace was in diamonds or hearts, I'd actually probably order my partner unless I knew for sure that he a strong player.

Knowing your partner makes things easier in pretty much all cases. In your particular scenario, I would pass regardless though.
I'm sure that's probably the correct play, as calling here feels just as bad as passing, I suppose I just feel like I lose the vast majority of games where the opponents are on 9 with their deal, but that may not be entirely accurate. Either way, this call is probably too risky to stake the game on, and my hand isn't so worthless that taking a trick is inconceivable. At least if the opponents are on 9 with their deal, there's still a chance, whereas the game is just over after a euchre. I'm mostly convinced its just not a good call here, I'm hoping to get lucky and betting it all, when such a strong reaction may not be warranted.

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