Weekly games 12/7 Hand #1 In south seat, what would you lead?

Ask questions, discuss and debate your strategies, euchre polls and more
Post Reply
User avatar
Dlan
Site Admin
Posts: 395
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:08 pm
Location: Ohio

Weekly games 12/7 Hand #1 In south seat, what would you lead?

Unread post by Dlan » Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:11 pm

Image

East dealt, North ordered right into dealer’s hand. In south seat, what would you lead?

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D



Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:11 pm

I know we're not supposed to name names, but player reads are important here. I was in South, and you were in North. Technically, the best lead in that spot is the As, but my read is that you are not ordering up the Right in 3rd without 4 trump (which I think is the correct way to play that spot save close out situations). So given that you have 4 trump, and I have 2 trump, I know the dealer only has the Right. Therefore I knew at the time it actually didn't matter what I led between the As and the 9s so I led the 9s. IF my P was an unknown (unknowns tend to order from 3rd too often) then I would've steadfastly lead the As.

User avatar
Dlan
Site Admin
Posts: 395
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:08 pm
Location: Ohio

Unread post by Dlan » Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:40 pm

Damn it, stop it.

This was a general question that would be of interest to many players.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:48 pm

Dlan wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:40 pm
Damn it, stop it.

This was a general question that would be of interest to many players.
I know, and I will follow the rules and do my best not to reveal names, but sometimes I have to becuz my play was literally influenced by the individual nature of my partner.

In general though, the As is the best lead for S1 becuz you wanna make sure S4's Right bower comes out on the first lead. If you lead the 9s, S3 may play a lower spade potentially allowing the dealer to win the trick without spending his Right which would be a nightmare occurrence for one's team. But like I said before, if my partner is a really strong player, I don't worry about which trump to lead cuz I know the dealer can ONLY have the Right in this spot becuz I know my P has to have 4 trump when he calls from 3rd vs the Right.

Tbolt65
Posts: 487
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:32 pm

Wes could of said 3rd seat partner was competent and likely wouldn't order light from 3rd seat. With that said, know your partner playing ability and style is so very important. Generally leading the Ace helps your partner force the right.


Tbolt65
Edward

User avatar
Dlan
Site Admin
Posts: 395
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:08 pm
Location: Ohio

Unread post by Dlan » Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:19 pm

Just for the record, Hands are chosen based on one (sometimes two) of the following criteria:

1) I think the hand was misplayed.

2) The hand could be played two different ways, is one better than the other?

3) The hand was played correctly but I see it commonly misplayed.

The ultimate goal of this forum and indeed OhioEuchre, in general, is to help new players become truly completive players.

Through the years, I have reviewed 100’s (maybe thousands) of games. Does that make me an all-knowing expert? Not even close. But those reviews have taught me a lot. There is much to be learned by watching those that are better than you, especially when they make a point on a hand that anyone else could have easily passed.

Great euchre players tend to have strong personalities. Using seat positions only allows us to focus on the cards themselves.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:38 am

Dlan wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:19 pm
Just for the record, Hands are chosen based on one (sometimes two) of the following criteria:

1) I think the hand was misplayed.

2) The hand could be played two different ways, is one better than the other?

3) The hand was played correctly but I see it commonly misplayed.
The more I think about it tho I should've just led the As anyways, for a couple of reasons. The first being this: If it doesn't matter which line one takes, one should still veer towards the line that is generally correct just for practice. Might as well keep training the brain to do the right thing even when it doesn't matter (this line of thought doesn't apply to poker, as it's exactly the opposite. In poker when all contending lines are equal in expectation one should take the most unconventional line, as they are then making their overall play less readable at zero cost).

The second reason is more substantial: Ok, so I quickly deduced through simple hand reading that it didn't matter what trump I led in this hand so I led low, but it's not really about this hand. It's about this spot. If I always lead the As in this spot this conveys information to my P becuz those times I lead the 9s he will now know I cannot have the As. I'm not exactly sure what my P can do with this information in this particular hand, but that's not really relevant. The bottom line is it's a team game. Everything else being equal, take the line that gives your P the most information possible.

Speaking of maximizing information, once I lead the 9s, and the 2 seat shows void in trump, the 3rd seat should NOT play the Left for he is now denying himself information. If the dealer has AsJs, the 3rd seat cannot escape that no matter what he does. If 3rd Seat plays the Left, he is left guessing whether the dealer has the As or not. 3rd Seat is better off playing the Ks and finding out right away if the hand he fears, AsJs, is out there. If that monster is out there, might as well get this information as early in the hand as possible. Again, I'm not sure how valuable this information is or not, but a general principle that applies to all card games is when all contending lines are equal, take the line that elicits the most information.

So to sum things up I would say I misplayed the hand. Yes it could be played in two different ways but one line is superior to the other.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:45 am

Tbolt65 wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:32 pm
Wes could of said 3rd seat partner was competent and likely wouldn't order light from 3rd seat. With that said, know your partner playing ability and style is so very important. Generally leading the Ace helps your partner force the right.


Tbolt65
Edward
One could even go a step further and say, no matter what the upcard is, when one's P orders up from 3rd and we have Ax in trump we should always lead the Ace. If the upcard was the Jack, we lead the Ace in trump for reasons already said. If the upcard was a non-jack, now we lead the Ace to give our P the option to play under should he have JJx or even JKx in trump.

Richardb02
Posts: 581
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Unread post by Richardb02 » Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:14 pm

I suggest that there are 3 levels of analysis relevant to this hand. I list them by priority.

Firstly, and most importantly, S1 needs to lead a trump to a S3 order. OE states, “it is mandatory to lead a trump to partner’s S3 order.” Many players will want to lead the singleton Ace. That inclination must be ignored. Make the fundamental play, lead trump to a S3 order.

Secondly, is whether to lead the 9 or the Ace. The fundamental choice is to lead the Ace to draw out opponents high trump.

Thirdly, is Wes analysis, that S3 has 4 trump or he would not have ordered up the right.

The only poor play is leading the Singleton Ace. Leading a trump to partner’s S3 order is an “easy as cake decision.” Choosing the Ace of trump is icing on the cake. Wes’ incredible, high level analysis is adding igniting candles on the cake.

Personally, I am not qualified to add igniting candles to this cake!

User avatar
LeftyK
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:45 am
Location: North Carolina

Unread post by LeftyK » Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:01 pm

I'm putting my 2cents in (after inflation): So the score is 0-0 and if you are new to your partner there are some things to consider here from the calling side. If familiar partner, I'm going alone here. (that's another sub topic :) ) But if new P and I call this from S3, I want to know what I would get outta this player. I had better see the ace of trumps led on trick one if they hold it. Like TBolt says it forces the right out immediately. Plus 1st has good helper cards and could catch something dealer leads if it got sticky (which it won't since caller now has the top trumps in hand).

jspectre
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:04 am

Unread post by jspectre » Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:34 pm

It's interesting how much analysis can go into a play that seems straightforward, but my immediate reaction was to lead the A, and that didn't change. Your partner most likely has the left, and with a second trump and an off A there's almost no fear of being euchred here, might as well lead high and let your p know you have it, and allowing them to play with more information, even if the hand is always 4/5 tricks.

Richardb02
Posts: 581
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Unread post by Richardb02 » Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:56 pm

jspectre wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:34 pm
It's interesting how much analysis can go into a play that seems straightforward, but my immediate reaction was to lead the A, and that didn't change. Your partner most likely has the left, and with a second trump and an off A there's almost no fear of being euchred here, might as well lead high and let your p know you have it, and allowing them to play with more information, even if the hand is always 4/5 tricks.
Thanks jspectre for adding to the reason to lead the Ace of trump. Let me rephrase my second level of analysis, lead the ace to draw out the high trump and as a bonus, let Partner know that you have it.

Post Reply