Weekly games 11/31 Hand 2

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Dlan
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Weekly games 11/31 Hand 2

Unread post by Dlan » Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:04 am

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Here West picks up the Jack of hearts. On this hand, a couple of questions come to mind. Would you have picked the jack, and if so would you have played it the same?

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Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:25 pm

Here West picks up the Jack of hearts. On this hand, a couple of questions come to mind. Would you have picked the jack, and if so would you have played it the same?
At 4-4, picking up the Jack to have R+1 and an off ace is a standard call, but this is also what I would call a gambler's loner, cuz it usually ends in -2 or +4. If one is in a weak game where S1 doesn't donate, one should strongly consider going alone when down a lot or when down 9-6/9-7. If S1 does donate then you gotta just call at all scores becuz S1's range will be too strong to try any weak loners like this.

After West calls, he proceeds to trump the club lead and lead the Right, to hopefully promote his tripleton green ace. I hate this spot becuz I'm not positive what's best. Is it worth selling out on a tripleton ace or should we we lead the As instead of the Right (I've asked other strong players around me and I get mixed answers, Edward (tbolt) believes we should lead the Right in this spot). I tend to play it just as the OP did but if I had a tripleton Next ace I would give up on the idea of trying to promote it and lead that off ace instead treating it as a card that can force a trump out of my enemy, maybe even leading to S1 getting overtrumped by my P or at least help my P create a void in another suit.

Ok so I lead the Right also in this spot, but imo it is not clear at all what West's next lead should be. West has a tripleton, connected Ace. Sending the Qs is equivalent to sending the As. Whether West's team gets euchred or not will usually come down to whether this lead walks or not. Perhaps sending the Qs to trick S1 into potentially playing incorrectly by playing off (I mean "incorrectly in the technical sense that S1 would trump in if he could see West's cards) is the best play? The problem with this line is from West's perspective his partner can still have trump and thus you could be potentially tricking your P into playing incorrectly if he trumps West's apparent non-boss lead. This could lead one's team into not getting 2 pts or even getting euchred. So leading a Qs has an upside and a downside. Keep in mind tho if S2 shows void in trump on West's Right bower lead, then it is absolutely critical West lead the Qs instead of the As, since there is no longer any downside to tricking his partner, and only upside into tricking S1 into throwing off.

Of course if S1 is really good at reading hands and knows your play, he will know what your up to as he will know you're not leading the Right to promote the Qs in this spot. He will know your other two cards MUST be the AsKs. And in real life he will smile at you, say "nice try" and promptly trump your Qs, but honestly I have yet to come across somebody who is THAT good so this interesting tidbit is irrelevant.

Ok back to the hand. Leading the As has the downside of inducing S1 to play 100% correctly by just trumping in and then West's team has a great chance of getting euchred. Given how critical it is that West's team gets this spade trick, it may be best to play the Qs tricking S1 into throwing off those times he's void in spades and has a trump. I really don't know, this spot bothers me too!!! And it seems like every time I do play the Qs in this spot I end up tricking my P instead of S1! But that's just variance, past noise that we can't let affect our current decision. Either way this hand has 2 decision points for West that are not clear to me to this day (should we sell out on the tripleton green ace and then should we play the As or the Qs) even though I've thought about this spot quite often. As of now I would say West's play is certainly defensible and I would usually play it the same way.

Other than that I would say that S1 made a clear mistake by not trumping the Makers As lead. Whether we agree or not with the maker's play, it is a very common line, and S1 needs to be ready for it and recognize that when the maker takes this line he very likely has no bullets left in the barrel, therefore S1 needs to go for the euchre by trumping in, hoping his P has the boss diamond or the Th with a void in diamonds.

Interesting to note, using hand reading logic from the perspective of S1 we can safely deduce that not only is the Maker out of trump when he takes this line but his P is out of trump also. How do we know that? Becuz the only trump left in the wild is the Th. If the maker had the Th he would've used it on the first lead trumping the club. If S2 had the Th he would've played it on the Maker's Jh lead as he wouldn't want to false-card his P with the Qh possibly inducing him to falsely believe he is out of trump. But this level of detail is unnecessary for S1 to make the right play. S1 just needs to recognize what this line likely means and do exactly what the maker doesn't want him to do: trump in and wrest control of the hand away from the enemy and go for the euchre.

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:48 pm

From the dealer perspective and ordering. I play it the same way. Seat 1 should have trumped in on the black Ace lead. If it was 9 - Q off suit lead, then I would have laid off with the boss Ace. I even trump a king lead because good player will false card there and lead that way in hopes you slough off.



Tbolt65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:46 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:48 pm
From the dealer perspective and ordering. I play it the same way. Seat 1 should have trumped in on the black Ace lead. If it was 9 - Q off suit lead, then I would have laid off with the boss Ace. I even trump a king lead because good player will false card there and lead that way in hopes you slough off.



Tbolt65
Edward
The eternal question of course is SHOULD we false card in that spot when there's still a chance we can trick our partner. Is the reward--tricking S1 into throwing off--worth that risk?

Notice tho, if you are my partner and you can read my play, I.E. you know I'm not gonna lead the Right in that spot trying to promote a queen or a king, then it's theoretically possible I would never trick you and therefore should never lead the off ace in this spot becuz now I can have my cake and eat it too, potentially tricking S1 without ever tricking my P.

And if you are in S1 and can read my play then I should simply abandon this parlor trick and lead the off Ace cuz you'll know what I'm up to anyways, cuz then it would be all risk (tricking my P) and no reward.

Fun spot lol.

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:31 pm

In this spot if my p trumps in. I am fine with that, we secure our point. So tricking my p has merits. I do this with you in live play when I want you to trump as high as you can go to either secure our point or to force a higher trump out setting my hand up to more easily take the remaining trucks or to net ourselves a point. I do this not only with you but with anyone. So there are merits and reasoning behind it. Get your opponents to lay off or tell your partner to trump in if you can. Its a double win in my book.

Tbolt65
Edward

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