Next vs Reverse Next R2S1 Eldest

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Richardb02
Posts: 581
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
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Next vs Reverse Next R2S1 Eldest

Unread post by Richardb02 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:31 pm

I saved a couple of Next vs Reverse Next Hands
The score in both cases was 4-2, in our favor. The players are typical, average or unknown players.
Up (Card_9-D)
S1 (Card_J-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_10-S) (Card_J-S) (Card_K-S)
Dealer passes. I now can order Next in hearts or Reverse Next in Spades
Using BPS for Next
0.75 R2S1
0.50 R2S1 Next
1.00 Jh
0.50 Kh
0.25 R+1
0.75 2 Voids/ 2 Suited
3.75 points

Reverse Next
0.75 R2S1
1.00 Js
0.50 Ks
0.25 Ts
0.50 3 Trump
0.75 2 Voids/ 2 Suited
3.75 points

A tie! An excellent edge hand for Next vs Reverse discussions. I kept analyzing. I see 2 near certain tricks in next and 2 near certain tricks in Reverse Next. I also see a possible 3rd trick in Reverse Next. I can make my Kh boss or take 3 trump tricks. So, I chose Reverse Next with this hand, to cover the possibility of Partner not being able to help.

I have no problem with a player choosing Next on the same hand.

Another comparison:
Up (Card_10-C)
S1 (Card_9-D) (Card_J-D) (Card_J-C) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-H)
I passed based on an edge hand ordering clubs, but having diamonds and hearts blocked.
Dealer passed. BPS for Reverse Next is:
0.75 R2S1
1.00 Jd
0.25 9d
0.25 R+1
0.50 Ac
0.25 1 Void
3.00 points. IMO, a 77% chance of success, I ordered

I definitely considered that Opponents could order diamonds and we would have an opportunity to euchre and get 2 points, as well as hearts blocked. I even de-rated the hand -.50, leaving a net hand value of 2.50, which is still only an edge order. So I ordered against these “typical” players. If, opponents were strong and/or aggressive, I would have de-rated the hand another -.25, leaving a net hand value of 2.25, I would pass.

1. What do you think about these 2 hands?
2. Do you see any “factors” that I missed?

Last edited by Richardb02 on Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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LeftyK
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Location: North Carolina

Unread post by LeftyK » Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:04 pm

1st hand for sure Rev next. maybe even a loner if way behind. 2nd one, idk I play defense on it even though next loner is out there. I'm guessing you made it ok ordering diamonds with R9.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:40 pm

LeftyK wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:04 pm
1st hand for sure Rev next. maybe even a loner if way behind.

I call spades too, and I agree that's a good loner try if desperate.
LeftyK wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:04 pm
2nd one, idk I play defense on it even though next loner is out there. I'm guessing you made it ok ordering diamonds with R9.
I think passing is totally reasonable. We have reverse next blocked with approx 2 tricks in either reverse next call. And having the Left in Next is still significant as it lowers the odds S2 is sitting on a Next call.

So I guess it's close between passing and calling diamonds. Only a simulation could tease out the truth but I do strongly believe that if S2 is super aggressive-- relentlessly trying to hit his partner--then I love passing even more.

Basically if I'm in S2, passing with this hand is gonna totally f**k me. And sometimes I'll know you're f**king me and there's nothing I can do about it:

EG my team is up 6-1. The dealer turns down the (Card_9-H) and an expert passes in S1 and I have this hand:

(Card_10-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_10-H) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-C)

Even tho I know that expert is a lock to have black blocked, I'm calling spades anyways. I just can't take the chance of S3 having a loner when my team is up 6-1.

Now if I had Next blocked, passing becomes reasonable. Same situation but let's say I had this hand:

(Card_J-D) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-C)

Given that S1 is an expert he's virtually a lock to have black blocked. This means S3 is very unlikely to have a black loner especially since I have 2 cards in each black suit, so since I have the Next loner covered one could argue I don't need to force it here. So much to think about!

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LeftyK
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:45 am
Location: North Carolina

Unread post by LeftyK » Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:49 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:40 pm
LeftyK wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:04 pm
1st hand for sure Rev next. maybe even a loner if way behind.

I call spades too, and I agree that's a good loner try if desperate.
LeftyK wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:04 pm
2nd one, idk I play defense on it even though next loner is out there. I'm guessing you made it ok ordering diamonds with R9.
I think passing is totally reasonable. We have reverse next blocked with approx 2 tricks in either reverse next call. And having the Left in Next is still significant as it lowers the odds S2 is sitting on a Next call.

So I guess it's close between passing and calling diamonds. Only a simulation could tease out the truth but I do strongly believe that if S2 is super aggressive-- relentlessly trying to hit his partner--then I love passing even more.

Basically if I'm in S2, passing with this hand is gonna totally f**k me. And sometimes I'll know you're f**king me and there's nothing I can do about it:

EG my team is up 6-1. The dealer turns down the (Card_9-H) and an expert passes in S1 and I have this hand:

(Card_10-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_10-H) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-C)

Even tho I know that expert is a lock to have black blocked, I'm calling spades anyways. I just can't take the chance of S3 having a loner when my team is up 6-1.

Now if I had Next blocked, passing becomes reasonable. Same situation but let's say I had this hand:

(Card_J-D) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-C)

Given that S1 is an expert he's virtually a lock to have black blocked. This means S3 is very unlikely to have a black loner especially since I have 2 cards in each black suit, so since I have the Next loner covered one could argue I don't need to force it here. So much to think about!
Euchre is a thinking game, not just toss cards around a hat :)

Richardb02
Posts: 581
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Unread post by Richardb02 » Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:44 am

LeftyK wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:49 pm
Euchre is a thinking game, not just toss cards around a hat :)
Yes Lefty, “Euchre is a thinking game, not just a toss cards around a hat :)

Everyone can enjoy Euchre at whatever level they decide. I play Euchre based on one of my life’s lessons, “as we go through life, we need to constantly and consistently make better decisions, based on better information, if we want to grow.” Otherwise, we are stagnant and in a rut. And a rut is just a grave with the ends kicked out!

Reading the OE Lessons and gaining an understanding of the lessons was my first step in making better decisions. Acing the OE Test was the 2nd step. I then took that information and started to “systematize” the OE lessons. BPS, at it’s highest level, a Bidding Point STRATEGY was the result. BPS, a Bidding Point SYSTEM, was then a simplified system of applying points to 20 easily recognizable “factors.” The factors include: Round, Seat, Trump, off suit Aces, Voids and card combinations. These factors are easily recognized by any player, that has played a while. Basic BPS expanded to include Loners, Score, Players and Donating. That stretched Basic BPS to its limits.

The OE Forum, especially Wes’ posts and Wes’ Advanced Quiz (easily found with a search) motivated me to my next level, BPS Advanced. The OE Monday night games were huge too. The major factor is the defensive value of a hand. Blocking, euchre hands and looking beyond R1 and also analyzing R2 were the first and major steps. Loners, Score, Players and Donating were refined. This is a work in progress. I still make major errors in my posts. I thank the other posters for correcting my mistakes.

Wes, Dlan and others motivate me to keep learning. Sharing this information on OE clarifies my approach, for my benefit, but hopefully helps readers enjoy Euchre more and more. Wes and others share their more advanced knowledge and analysis of Euchre.

My recommendation is to enjoy Euchre and OE at whatever level of your skills. But keep learning, ask questions on the forum, especially, “why” questions. Join us Monday nights at 850 PM ET. Improve your game and your enjoyment of the wonderfully simple but definitely thinking game of Euchre.

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