Was this a poor call?

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XaviRonaldo
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Was this a poor call?

Unread post by XaviRonaldo » Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:36 pm

So to give some background I was playing on euchre 3D rated games and managed to luck into getting the same partner for several games in a row. We'd won each game and were working together very well.

Now to the hand in question...

I was in 1st seat and a black card which I forget what it was got turned down and I held...
(Card_K-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_A-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_A-C)

It was still pretty early in the game so I called hearts because I had 2 and had all the off-suit aces. I guess next would've been a more appropriate call but having all those aces and 2 trump I decided hearts was a better call (it wasn't and 2nd seat had trumps stacked on me).

Then I got thrown the constant "no way!" By my partner. Why would you decide to be such a grump when we'd both proved we can work together? I'm pretty sure a next call wouldn't have worked either as my partner was 4 suited with no bauers and obviously 2nd seat was going to call hearts so they really only got 1 extra point compared to me passing.

Such a beautiful relationship ruined.

I know the EV calculations would say I should've called next but in the end it didn't matter as next call was still probably a euchre.



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Dlan
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Unread post by Dlan » Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:17 pm

I would have done the same and started the hand by leading the 10 of hearts.

Richardb02
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Unread post by Richardb02 » Fri Nov 06, 2020 6:06 am

Your order was the best order. IMO.

Dlan agreed with your order and pointed out that he would have lead the 9H (he inadvertently posted “10 of hearts.” That is actually critical to playing this hand successfully! You need to draw trump to promote your aces.

What did you lead?

jblowery
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Unread post by jblowery » Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:08 am

Good call. No brainer. If I have 2 low cards plus 2 off suite aces I'll call, even in reverse next. Takes less for calling next obviously.

Richardb02
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Unread post by Richardb02 » Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:37 am

jblowery wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:08 am
Good call. No brainer. If I have 2 low cards plus 2 off suite aces I'll call, even in reverse next. Takes less for calling next obviously.
Great points jblowery!

Please address the next step, which I posed to Xavi.
What card would you lead?
Why would you make this lead?
Do you agree with Dlan, the creator of OE, lead your low trump?

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LeftyK
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Unread post by LeftyK » Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:48 pm

no brainer call. and lead the low♥️ as stated. how you lucked into three games with same p on the 3D is lucky. I can count on one hand the times that has happened to me on there

jblowery
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Unread post by jblowery » Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:46 am

Yup. Low heart. Otherwise at least 2 of those 3 aces will get trumped.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:53 pm

XaviRonaldo wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:36 pm
Now to the hand in question...

I was in 1st seat and a black card which I forget what it was got turned down and I held...
(Card_K-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_A-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_A-C)

It was still pretty early in the game so I called hearts because I had 2 and had all the off-suit aces. I guess next would've been a more appropriate call but having all those aces and 2 trump I decided hearts was a better call (it wasn't and 2nd seat had trumps stacked on me).
One thing is for sure, you did not make a poor call. It's certainly a marginal/debatable call but that is by definition not a poor call.
XaviRonaldo wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:36 pm
I know the EV calculations would say I should've called next but in the end it didn't matter as next call was still probably a euchre.
Unfortunately we do not know the EV calcs for calling Next with your hand vs jumping the fence in hearts. We all get the general idea: if it's close veer towards calling Next but that still begs the question of how we define "close". In your hand we can jump the fence with two low trump (I define all non-bower trump as low trump) + 3 off aces or we can call Next with 1 low trump and 2 off aces. Are those two hands close enough to justify a Next call instead of a heart call? We cannot know without that mythical euchre simulator.

What I will say is I am skeptical of the idea that this is a clear hearts call. I think a Next call still has a good shot of coming out ahead in the long run, and I would tend to call Next in this spot. But I accept the fact that I could easily be wrong. That said tho there is a condition where I am much more confident that a Next call is the play, and that is when your partner is an expert and he has confidence in your 2nd rd play. Why? Becuz an expert is going to be bagging heavily from the 3rd spot knowing 3 good outcomes can happen if he passes:

1) Your team euchres the dealer
2) The dealer passes, you call something from S1 and get a pt anyways.
3) The dealer passes and you call from S1 and get 2 points or go alone and get 4 pts.

Keep in mind whenever you call in 3rd, 1st rd, every time the dealer would've called had you past you cost your team, every time the dealer would've passed and your partner had a 1 pt call you cost your team by taking an unnecessary risk, and every time you call and the dealer would've passed and your partner had a 4 pt 2nd rd loner you really cost your team, sometimes the ultimate cost: Your 3rd seat call gets euchred even tho the dealer would've passed and your P had a 4 pt loner (a 6 pt negative swing!)

Here's some examples of how tight an expert can play from 3rd. When I play with Edward (tbolt65)--who is one of the strongest players in the world--and I have these hands in the 3rd spot I am never calling except in a close-out situation, I.E. we have 9 thus we gain nothing from euchring the dealer:

Dealer up card: (Card_A-C)

I have:

(Card_J-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_10-S)

or I have:

(Card_J-C) (Card_J-S) (Card_9-C) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-D)

or I have:

(Card_J-S) (Card_Q-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_A-H)

In all 3 situations, I'm gonna pass and try to get my cake and eat it too, knowing I got a partner I can depend on in the 2nd round who will make the proper thin defensive calls when he doesn't block reverse next. Notice in all 3 hands above I have at least 2 tricks in Next.

Now the real point of this all is that when an expert is playing 3rd seat properly his range will be even more tilted towards a Next call than usual. And becuz of that I feel confident in saying that you should call Next with your hand if someone like me or Edward were your partner in 3rd. But the thing is 99% of the time you'll be playing with some random, and yes a Next call will still hit their range more often than other suits but it's not as prominent as the expert example. So in theory even when your partner is a random you should be willing to call Next if your hand is slightly worse than a reverse next call due to the fact that you're still more likely to hit a random partner and a reverse next call is more likely to hit your enemy. But then it's back to square one, how much worse can that Next call be or conversely how much better does your jumping the fence hand have to be to justify jumping the fence.

And finally here's yet another can of worms we have to open! All the while we are talking about calling hearts vs calling next and there is a 3rd option that one can argue for! What about passing? Now my general rule of thumb in this spot is (you said it was early in the game) always call something from S1, 2nd rd, veering towards Next if you don't block reverse Next. The idea is play strong defense as that is S1's job. Fear passing when you don't have key suits blocked more than you fear the euchre becuz when you don't have much defense getting euchred actually doesn't cost that much theoretically.

Well your very hand may be an exception to the rule. Notice if you pass you have 2 off aces no matter what Seat 2 calls. That's pretty strong defense right there. One could argue with decent defense like that S1 shouldn't feel compelled to call marginal and risk a euchre. I don't know the answer to this, as I said, even with a random P I would tend to call Next but I'm not sure about it, and with an expert P I am very confident calling Next is best. What I am sure about tho is if I had that mythical euchre simulator I would have to compare 3 strategies to get at the truth of the matter, not two.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:56 pm

jblowery wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:46 am
Yup. Low heart. Otherwise at least 2 of those 3 aces will get trumped.
Yep, if one calls hearts, it is absolutely critical to lead a low heart in this spot--potentially clearing out 2 enemy trump in one lead--to give our off aces the best chance possible of turning into tricks.

XaviRonaldo
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:41 am

Unread post by XaviRonaldo » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:56 am

Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 6:06 am
Your order was the best order. IMO.

Dlan agreed with your order and pointed out that he would have lead the 9H (he inadvertently posted “10 of hearts.” That is actually critical to playing this hand successfully! You need to draw trump to promote your aces.

What did you lead?
Yes I led low heart but LHO just has me dead to rights.

XaviRonaldo
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:41 am

Unread post by XaviRonaldo » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:58 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:53 pm
XaviRonaldo wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:36 pm
Now to the hand in question...

I was in 1st seat and a black card which I forget what it was got turned down and I held...
(Card_K-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_A-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_A-C)

It was still pretty early in the game so I called hearts because I had 2 and had all the off-suit aces. I guess next would've been a more appropriate call but having all those aces and 2 trump I decided hearts was a better call (it wasn't and 2nd seat had trumps stacked on me).
One thing is for sure, you did not make a poor call. It's certainly a marginal/debatable call but that is by definition not a poor call.
XaviRonaldo wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:36 pm
I know the EV calculations would say I should've called next but in the end it didn't matter as next call was still probably a euchre.
Unfortunately we do not know the EV calcs for calling Next with your hand vs jumping the fence in hearts. We all get the general idea: if it's close veer towards calling Next but that still begs the question of how we define "close". In your hand we can jump the fence with two low trump (I define all non-bower trump as low trump) + 3 off aces or we can call Next with 1 low trump and 2 off aces. Are those two hands close enough to justify a Next call instead of a heart call? We cannot know without that mythical euchre simulator.

What I will say is I am skeptical of the idea that this is a clear hearts call. I think a Next call still has a good shot of coming out ahead in the long run, and I would tend to call Next in this spot. But I accept the fact that I could easily be wrong. That said tho there is a condition where I am much more confident that a Next call is the play, and that is when your partner is an expert and he has confidence in your 2nd rd play. Why? Becuz an expert is going to be bagging heavily from the 3rd spot knowing 3 good outcomes can happen if he passes:

1) Your team euchres the dealer
2) The dealer passes, you call something from S1 and get a pt anyways.
3) The dealer passes and you call from S1 and get 2 points or go alone and get 4 pts.

Keep in mind whenever you call in 3rd, 1st rd, every time the dealer would've called had you past you cost your team, every time the dealer would've passed and your partner had a 1 pt call you cost your team by taking an unnecessary risk, and every time you call and the dealer would've passed and your partner had a 4 pt 2nd rd loner you really cost your team, sometimes the ultimate cost: Your 3rd seat call gets euchred even tho the dealer would've passed and your P had a 4 pt loner (a 6 pt negative swing!)

Here's some examples of how tight an expert can play from 3rd. When I play with Edward (tbolt65)--who is one of the strongest players in the world--and I have these hands in the 3rd spot I am never calling except in a close-out situation, I.E. we have 9 thus we gain nothing from euchring the dealer:

Dealer up card: (Card_A-C)

I have:

(Card_J-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_10-S)

or I have:

(Card_J-C) (Card_J-S) (Card_9-C) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-D)

or I have:

(Card_J-S) (Card_Q-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_A-H)

In all 3 situations, I'm gonna pass and try to get my cake and eat it too, knowing I got a partner I can depend on in the 2nd round who will make the proper thin defensive calls when he doesn't block reverse next. Notice in all 3 hands above I have at least 2 tricks in Next.

Now the real point of this all is that when an expert is playing 3rd seat properly his range will be even more tilted towards a Next call than usual. And becuz of that I feel confident in saying that you should call Next with your hand if someone like me or Edward were your partner in 3rd. But the thing is 99% of the time you'll be playing with some random, and yes a Next call will still hit their range more often than other suits but it's not as prominent as the expert example. So in theory even when your partner is a random you should be willing to call Next if your hand is slightly worse than a reverse next call due to the fact that you're still more likely to hit a random partner and a reverse next call is more likely to hit your enemy. But then it's back to square one, how much worse can that Next call be or conversely how much better does your jumping the fence hand have to be to justify jumping the fence.

And finally here's yet another can of worms we have to open! All the while we are talking about calling hearts vs calling next and there is a 3rd option that one can argue for! What about passing? Now my general rule of thumb in this spot is (you said it was early in the game) always call something from S1, 2nd rd, veering towards Next if you don't block reverse Next. The idea is play strong defense as that is S1's job. Fear passing when you don't have key suits blocked more than you fear the euchre becuz when you don't have much defense getting euchred actually doesn't cost that much theoretically.

Well your very hand may be an exception to the rule. Notice if you pass you have 2 off aces no matter what Seat 2 calls. That's pretty strong defense right there. One could argue with decent defense like that S1 shouldn't feel compelled to call marginal and risk a euchre. I don't know the answer to this, as I said, even with a random P I would tend to call Next but I'm not sure about it, and with an expert P I am very confident calling Next is best. What I am sure about tho is if I had that mythical euchre simulator I would have to compare 3 strategies to get at the truth of the matter, not two.
I didn't even think about passing to be honest. The problem I find though with holding 3 aces is the squeeze in which one to keep. I'd rather just take a chance on a call than leave myself lucking into keeping the right ace.

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