3 questions. Situation: My partner was the dealer. The score was 7-7 in an 8 point game. Upcard was the 10 of hearts.

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SardineBreath
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3 questions. Situation: My partner was the dealer. The score was 7-7 in an 8 point game. Upcard was the 10 of hearts.

Post by SardineBreath » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:17 pm

3 questions. Situation: My partner was the dealer. The score was 7-7 in an 8 point game. Upcard was the 10 of hearts. I was sitting in 2nd seat. I had the 9 and jack of hearts, was 4 suited, and had no side aces.

1st seat passes. I pass. 3rd seat passes. To my astonishment, my partner, the dealer, passes. I thought it was understood that at a score of 7-7 the dealer MUST order up, regardless of whether or not he likes the upcard. My partner in turn was astonished that I did not order up, given that I held the right bower and one other smaller trump. My thinking: it’s fine for me to pass ‘cuz I trust my partner WILL order up in this circumstance. Better for me to pass when I wasn’t confident I could take 2 tricks.


Ok Euchre community, for the above situation, what do you think?

Question #1: Is it an accepted standard that the dealer MUST order up at this score?

Question #2: Is it an accepted standard that if 2nd seat doesn’t think he can take 2 tricks, that he should pass and let his partner, the dealer, order it up? (if 3rd seat also passes?)

Question #3: What would YOU do, if you were sitting in 2nd seat, and held the cards I described above? Order up or pass?



Play2Win
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Post by Play2Win » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:45 pm

Interestingly, I just answered a similar question in another post.

With a tie score and one point to go, this hand will decide the winner. By passing, you are telling your partner that you have nothing. Order up your partner.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:16 pm

(Card_A-D)
SardineBreath wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:17 pm
My thinking: it’s fine for me to pass ‘cuz I trust my partner WILL order up in this circumstance. Better for me to pass when I wasn’t confident I could take 2 tricks.
Your partner is right. You let your team down by passing a biddable hand.
SardineBreath wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:17 pm
Question #1: Is it an accepted standard that the dealer MUST order up at this score?
No. That's an absurd convention that will induce people to play terribly. You can't wish yourself a hand if you aint got one.
SardineBreath wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:17 pm
Question #2: Is it an accepted standard that if 2nd seat doesn’t think he can take 2 tricks, that he should pass and let his partner, the dealer, order it up? (if 3rd seat also passes?)
You have the right + 1 and you get to order your partner up another trump. You have no 2nd round hand. This is not a confusing spot. Ordering up in the first round is your team's best and probably only chance to win. Passing biddable hands in euchre is not a viable strategy.
SardineBreath wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:17 pm
Question #3: What would YOU do, if you were sitting in 2nd seat, and held the cards I described above? Order up or pass?
Right + 1, 4 suited with no side aces is a MUST order from the 2 seat at ANY score. You have a decent chance to make a point, plus you have no where to go in the 2nd round and you have poor defense in the 2nd round as you only block 1 out of the 3 remaining suits. Why even give the 1 seat a chance at a 2nd round black loner? Order now in the first round. Euchre is not just about playing your hand. You have to make the play that is best for your team.
Last edited by Wes (aka the legend) on Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:18 pm

Play2Win wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:45 pm
Interestingly, I just answered a similar question in another post.

With a tie score and one point to go, this hand will decide the winner. By passing, you are telling your partner that you have nothing. Order up your partner.
Exactly.

Catch10110
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Location: Aurora, IL

Post by Catch10110 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:06 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:16 pm
You have the right + 1 and you get to order your partner up another trump. You have no 2nd round hand. This is not a confusing spot. Ordering up in the first round is your team's best and probably only chance to win. Passing biddable hands in euchre is not a viable strategy.
Right + 1, 4 suited with no side aces is a MUST order from the 2 seat at ANY score. You have a decent chance to make a point, plus you have no where to go in the 2nd round and you have poor defense in the 2nd round as you only block 1 out of the 3 remaining suits. Why even give the 1 seat a chance at a 2nd round black loner? Order now in the first round. Euchre is not just about playing your hand. You have to make the play that is best for your team.
Is right+1 always a must order?

Or are you referring to these specific situations?

I'm just confused because in the second part of that quote you mention right +1 with no side aces...does this change is you DO have side aces?

RedDuke
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Post by RedDuke » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:17 am

Catch10110 wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:06 pm
Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:16 pm
You have the right + 1 and you get to order your partner up another trump. You have no 2nd round hand. This is not a confusing spot. Ordering up in the first round is your team's best and probably only chance to win. Passing biddable hands in euchre is not a viable strategy.
Right + 1, 4 suited with no side aces is a MUST order from the 2 seat at ANY score. You have a decent chance to make a point, plus you have no where to go in the 2nd round and you have poor defense in the 2nd round as you only block 1 out of the 3 remaining suits. Why even give the 1 seat a chance at a 2nd round black loner? Order now in the first round. Euchre is not just about playing your hand. You have to make the play that is best for your team.
Is right+1 always a must order?

Or are you referring to these specific situations?

I'm just confused because in the second part of that quote you mention right +1 with no side aces...does this change is you DO have side aces?
If you have Right + 1, you have at least one guaranteed trick and possibly two. Side aces will probably get you another trick. If your partner can get one trick then you're as good as gold. Order up.

Catch10110
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Location: Aurora, IL

Post by Catch10110 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:07 am

That was my thinking...The phrasing was such that I just couldn't tell if Wes had something else in mind for a situation where you did have side aces.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:29 pm

Catch10110 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:07 am
That was my thinking...The phrasing was such that I just couldn't tell if Wes had something else in mind for a situation where you did have side aces.
Having an offsuit ace of course makes the hand even better. The point I was trying to emphasize is with a 4 suited, no off suit ace hand, we have a very crappy 2nd round hand. Ordering up with such a marginal holding in the 1st round is not just about playing good marginal offense, it's also playing great defense! With no way to stop a 1st seat red loner in the 2nd round, it's imperative we order in the first round. Ever notice how hard it is to pull off a loner sweep against great players? This is why. They are always thinking ahead, and they are always thinking defensively.

Now that said, we can't take this logic too far. We can't just order up our Partner with anything from the 2 seat whenever we have nothing in the 2nd round. And in fact, Right+1, 4 suited with no off aces, is the bottom of our range imo. I wouldn't order with just Left+1. Altho if we had Left+1 and another offsuit Ace--another very marginal holding--then I would order our partner up using the same exact logic. I.E. if I have Left+1 and an offsuit ace and I have no where to go in the 2nd round and not much defense in the 2nd round either, I'm ordering from the 2 seat now.

Exceptions: The time it may be defensible to pass in the first round with Right+1, 4 suits, no aces is when you have all suits blocked. Also never order with just left+1 and an Ace if you have all suits blocked.

A classic and easy example of when NOT to order with Right+1 from 2 seat: Dealer has Qh up, and you have AhJhJcJsAd. You have all suits blocked so you don't have to worry about a 1 seat 2nd rd loner and you have a black loner in the 2nd round.

RedDuke
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Post by RedDuke » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:41 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:29 pm
Catch10110 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:07 am
That was my thinking...The phrasing was such that I just couldn't tell if Wes had something else in mind for a situation where you did have side aces.
Having an offsuit ace of course makes the hand even better. The point I was trying to emphasize is with a 4 suited, no off suit ace hand, we have a very crappy 2nd round hand. Ordering up with such a marginal holding in the 1st round is not just about playing good marginal offense, it's also playing great defense! With no way to stop a 1st seat red loner in the 2nd round, it's imperative we order in the first round. Ever notice how hard it is to pull off a loner sweep against great players? This is why. They are always thinking ahead, and they are always thinking defensively.

Now that said, we can't take this logic too far. We can't just order up our Partner with anything from the 2 seat whenever we have nothing in the 2nd round. And in fact, Right+1, 4 suited with no off aces, is the bottom of our range imo. I wouldn't order with just Left+1. Altho if we had Left+1 and another offsuit Ace--another very marginal holding--then I would order our partner up using the same exact logic. I.E. if I have Left+1 and an offsuit ace and I have no where to go in the 2nd round and not much defense in the 2nd round either, I'm ordering from the 2 seat now.

Exceptions: The time it may be defensible to pass in the first round with Right+1, 4 suits, no aces is when you have all suits blocked. Also never order with just left+1 and an Ace if you have all suits blocked.

A classic and easy example of when NOT to order with Right+1 from 2 seat: Dealer has Qh up, and you have AhJhJcJsAd. You have all suits blocked so you don't have to worry about a 1 seat 2nd rd loner and you have a black loner in the 2nd round.
Keep in mind though, that in second seat you may be stopping your partner (as dealer) from going alone if you order him up? Even if you have Right+1, it's pretty easy to conceive of a hand where the dealer can go alone, especially since the right is buried in your hand. While this isn't really a problem at game point, if the score was lower (say 4-3), I doubt I'd order up my partner unless I was holding at least three trump.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:27 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:41 pm
Keep in mind though, that in second seat you may be stopping your partner (as dealer) from going alone if you order him up? Even if you have Right+1, it's pretty easy to conceive of a hand where the dealer can go alone, especially since the right is buried in your hand. While this isn't really a problem at game point, if the score was lower (say 4-3), I doubt I'd order up my partner unless I was holding at least three trump.
When you have Right+1 you won't block your partner's loner often enough to worry about it. Plus there are more pressing concerns that should compel one to order this up.

I've talked about some of those concerns but now I'll mention another dynamic at play in this spot. Say you pass Right+1 from the 2 seat, and obviously your partner doesn't know this. Think about all the hands your partner would call with if hypothetically he knew your cards. He's certainly going to order up significantly looser knowing he's got the Right+1 on his side. But since your partner DOESN'T know your hand he's now going to pass with those same marginal hands he would've called had he knew your hand.

This universe of marginal hands your partner would pass but call had he seen your cards is not that small. Hands like two trump and an Ace, even 1 trump and two aces, come to mind. Every time you pass with Right+1 your setting your partner up to make this theoretical "mistake". And this mistake can be VERY costly when your team has little defense in the 2nd round. Don't let this "miscommunication" dynamic play out. Order up the Right+1 from the 2 seat and save your partner from passing hands he otherwise wouldn't. Again, with the Right+1 in your hand, the population of such hands is not that small.

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