Adjusting to your Partner

A euchre forum, which focuses mainly on the advanced strategies and statistics used by experienced players, can be a little overwhelming to a new player.
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zegelekase
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:25 pm

Adjusting to your Partner

Unread post by zegelekase » Sat Aug 08, 2020 4:30 pm

All of the methodologies, points systems, etc. assume a theoretical partner that will respond to the strategy rationally. The "optimal" euchre strategy therefore assumes a theoretical partner as opposed to any particular real partner. Since that is the case, are there adjustments to the "best" strategies that will produce better results when playing with partners who have unorthodox styles?

From time to time there are comments in the development material that talk about "experienced" or "average" partners but not much on whether to adjust or just push through and deal with it. Obviously a partner makes a big difference. I have been playing Euchre 3D and my win % playing single with bots with nearly 2,000 games is 63%, while my win % playing multi-player is nearly 10 percent lower at 55% with around 2,500 games. (I would expect it to be lower against real players but this is a lot of variation)

What I noticed, however was that when playing with certain partners I can have runs where we win at a rate that is solidly in the mid 60's but with many others runs will struggle to be 50%. Are there common adjustments to make with partners who are very conservative in ordering up or who don't lead trump when I call that would improve the win percentage? Or would the advice be simply to make the best decision based upon the cards rather than adjusting to the partner (and then just accept the outcomes)?



knglenny
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:25 pm

Unread post by knglenny » Sat Aug 08, 2020 4:46 pm

I am not the best person to ask so take with a grain of salt:

I think the general strategies would be:

If playing with someone very conservative, lower up your call minimums. I can't even say how many times on 3D euchre I've made a thin next call (or as thin as you can get from the 3rd seat) and we take all 5 because they were strong and passed

If playing with someone that doesn't lead back trump, raise your call minimums as you will need to do more work to carry the hand

I also play 3D euchre and rarely play with the same person twice, but I generally just play the cards.

zegelekase
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:25 pm

Unread post by zegelekase » Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:23 pm

Appreciate the response. We should partner up on 3D!

Richardb02
Posts: 581
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Unread post by Richardb02 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:32 pm

zegelekase wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 4:30 pm
All of the methodologies, points systems, etc. assume a theoretical partner that will respond to the strategy rationally. The "optimal" euchre strategy therefore assumes a theoretical partner as opposed to any particular real partner. Since that is the case, are there adjustments to the "best" strategies that will produce better results when playing with partners who have unorthodox styles?

From time to time there are comments in the development material that talk about "experienced" or "average" partners but not much on whether to adjust or just push through and deal with it. Obviously a partner makes a big difference. I have been playing Euchre 3D and with around 2,500 games. (I would expect it to be lower against real players but this is a lot of variation)

What I noticed, however was that when playing with certain partners I can have runs where we win at a rate that is solidly in the mid 60's but with many others runs will struggle to be 50%. Are there common adjustments to make with partners who are very conservative in ordering up or who don't lead trump when I call that would improve the win percentage? Or would the advice be simply to make the best decision based upon the cards rather than adjusting to the partner (and then just accept the outcomes)?
Personally, I like to take a 30,000 foot view, then come down to a 15,000 foot view and finally a ground level view. At 30,000’, I see your opening remarks, “my win % playing single with bots with nearly 2,000 games is 63%, while my win % playing multi-player is nearly 10 percent lower at 55%.” What I see missing from your thought process, is that you have 1 Bot partner and 2 Bot opponents. My conclusion, is that your opponents weakness is more important to the difference than your bot-partner. My conclusion, is that your 2 bot-opponents have twice the impact of your bot-partner. I also conclude that you are an “above the bot” player. So your results are not surprising.

At 15,000 feet and based on experience at WoCG (World of Card Games) and Karman Games, human players are better than the bots’ programming. That leads to my approach to the opponents (and your partner) and it’s application.

A poor player is also an erratic player. You can only adjust so much because they don’t play based on knowledge and logic. They will surprise you (mostly in a bad way). If your partner is a weak bidder, you should loosen 1 klick, to order when they pass on a biddable hand. Now, if they are a poor player (doesn’t lead trump to a S3 (S3 order), wastes trump, etc.) then you need to tighten 1 klick. Using BPS, 1 click is 0.25 point. But as you can see, a weak bidder who is also a poor player (typical with a poor player) they neutralize each other! The conclusions are similar with the opponents, but it gets more complicated because you have 2 opponents. Usually, my conclusion is that the adjustments will zero out. My conclusion, against weak opponents, play the cards. Average players are, in general, poor players. Having said that, I also don’t play too above-average. They do not understand Donating, Next or Reverse Next. I have learned to respond with, “it was defensive.” Average players accept that explanation more readily. If you get your partner upset, they will often throw the game. I’m in it, to win it. So I prefer to back off the strong play and play down to the players in the game.

Now a strong player is a different story! You need to play Monday night at 850 PM ET at WoCG (World of Card Games), to see the difference. I will adjust up to 3 klicks (0.75 BPS), to adjust to my partner, because you can count on your partner to order and play to the max! I still limit the adjustment to my opponents, because they are smart enough to mix it up and/or figure you out! In general, I lean toward adjusting 1 klick toward passing against strong opponents.

We encourage everyone to join us Monday evening at WoCG at 850 ET. You will not kick anyone out of a game. We can add tables. We can play rated games. Our #1 goal is to add additional players. Post on this site if you want to join us. We welcome you.

zegelekase
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:25 pm

Unread post by zegelekase » Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:47 pm

Thanks Richardb02,

That makes sense... I wasn't thinking too much about the two other bots we were playing against. Monday's are difficult with my schedule. Next time I am available I may pop in. Frankly, I think my multiplayer win % is more accurate, I have seen the bots do some pretty odd things (mostly not really playing as a team). I have always enjoyed the game... consider myself an average player but would like to get better.

Richardb02
Posts: 581
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Unread post by Richardb02 » Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:31 pm

Hey zeg, please confirm that you played on the ohioeuchre table last Monday. Assuming that I am correct, please post your thoughts.

zegelekase
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:25 pm

Unread post by zegelekase » Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:31 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:31 pm
Hey zeg, please confirm that you played on the ohioeuchre table last Monday. Assuming that I am correct, please post your thoughts.


I did indeed.
Here is a quick summary of my thoughts...

The Interface: It took a couple hands for me to adjust to the interface but it was fairly easy to pickup. Similar to many other online Euchre games.

The Play: I was actually debating if I should show up but was very glad I did. I had a great time and anyone playing in that forum is likely to learn a lot. I identified a few mistakes that I made (and I am sure I made several I didn't notice :) ) Very high level of play but also very welcoming.

I certainly will come back when I am able and recommend that others who are looking for places to play and/or to improve to come.

Richardb02
Posts: 581
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Unread post by Richardb02 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:24 pm

Thank you for joining us last Monday at 850PM ET at WoCG and for your post.

Tbolt65
Posts: 487
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:26 am

zegelekase wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 4:30 pm
All of the methodologies, points systems, etc. assume a theoretical partner that will respond to the strategy rationally. The "optimal" euchre strategy therefore assumes a theoretical partner as opposed to any particular real partner. Since that is the case, are there adjustments to the "best" strategies that will produce better results when playing with partners who have unorthodox styles?

From time to time there are comments in the development material that talk about "experienced" or "average" partners but not much on whether to adjust or just push through and deal with it. Obviously a partner makes a big difference. I have been playing Euchre 3D and my win % playing single with bots with nearly 2,000 games is 63%, while my win % playing multi-player is nearly 10 percent lower at 55% with around 2,500 games. (I would expect it to be lower against real players but this is a lot of variation)

What I noticed, however was that when playing with certain partners I can have runs where we win at a rate that is solidly in the mid 60's but with many others runs will struggle to be 50%. Are there common adjustments to make with partners who are very conservative in ordering up or who don't lead trump when I call that would improve the win percentage? Or would the advice be simply to make the best decision based upon the cards rather than adjusting to the partner (and then just accept the outcomes)?

Yes adjustments to your partner is key. I always assume they play optimally. When they prove otherwise, I either become more aggressive or passive for various situations. You have to see what they do or dont do and make changes on the fly and be very cognizant of whats been played and not been played.


Tbolt65
Edward

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