Next vs. Reverse Next in Euchre

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Richardb02
Posts: 633
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Next vs. Reverse Next in Euchre

Unread post by Richardb02 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:45 pm

You are in Seat 1
Your team is winning 5-2
Players are average and equal
(Card_10-S) Was turned down. You hold:
(Card_9-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_J-S) (Card_Q-C)
Would you order or pass?
If you order would you go in Next, Clubs or
Go in Reverse Next, Hearts, with 3 trump?



RedDuke
Posts: 444
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Unread post by RedDuke » Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:40 am

Richardb02 wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:45 pm
You are in Seat 1
Your team is winning 5-2
Players are average and equal
(Card_10-S) Was turned down. You hold:
(Card_9-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_J-S) (Card_Q-C)
Would you order or pass?
If you order would you go in Next, Clubs or
Go in Reverse Next, Hearts, with 3 trump?
I'd order hearts and pray my partner has some black cards. You can't pass this.

Richardb02
Posts: 633
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Unread post by Richardb02 » Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:03 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:40 am
Richardb02 wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:45 pm
You are in Seat 1
Your team is winning 5-2
Players are average and equal
(Card_10-S) Was turned down. You hold:
(Card_9-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_J-S) (Card_Q-C)
Would you order or pass?
If you order would you go in Next, Clubs or
Go in Reverse Next, Hearts, with 3 trump?
I'd order hearts and pray my partner has some black cards. You can't pass this.
Why do you choose hearts instead of clubs?

pcather
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:36 pm

Unread post by pcather » Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:06 pm

I think it depends on the level of player.

I’m playing on Euchre 3D and I’ve seen many who have a lot of spades but wouldn’t call it because they don’t have the right that I hold. I’m finding that when I play next I often get euchred. But then, even though I have 3 hearts, they there is a Right, Left and Ace of hearts out there waiting to get me. If the opponents passed on spades it might be because they want to play red. :shock:

I think if I am playing more risk taking players I’d try next. If not it’s probably 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other.

Richardb02
Posts: 633
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Unread post by Richardb02 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:19 pm

pcather wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:06 pm
I think it depends on the level of player.

I’m playing on Euchre 3D and I’ve seen many who have a lot of spades but wouldn’t call it because they don’t have the right that I hold. I’m finding that when I play next I often get euchred. But then, even though I have 3 hearts, they there is a Right, Left and Ace of hearts out there waiting to get me. If the opponents passed on spades it might be because they want to play red. :shock:

I think if I am playing more risk taking players I’d try next. If not it’s probably 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other.
I think differently.
1. My first analysis, I see 3 hearts vs. 2 clubs.
2. I see Clubs vs Next, whereas Hearts is RN (Reverse Next)
3. I see a Left Clubs vs. K Hearts
What factor is greater? How do I analyze those factors?
Players are a factor, but they are less in importance than the cards. Strong, consistent and usually aggressive players are a stronger factor than inconsistent, weak playing and non-aggresssive ordering players. Join us Monday nights at 850 PM ET at worldofcardgames.com to see strong players. I also suggest that Euchre 3D players are weaker, much weaker.
Next how do we analyze? We need to list all the factors that we consider important. Then we have to determine the strength of each factor. I use my BPS (Bidding Point System) to analyze the relative strength of the factors. Each factor is worth 1/4 point or 0.25 points. 1.25 points gives you a 95% probability of taking 1 trick. The one exception is the Right, worth 1.00 point, gives you a 100% probability of taking 1 trick.
Here is my comparison, side by side:
________Clubs_____vs_____Hearts
R2S1____ 0.50_____________0.50
Next____0.75______________0.00
Js______0.75______________0.00
Qc_____0.50_______________0.00
9h________________________0.25
Qh________________________0.50
Kh________________________0.50
3 Trump___________________0.50
Bower +1_0.25
Total____2.75______vs_______2.25
So 2.75 is stronger than 2.25. Go Next. It passes the smell test. It looks correct from a 30,000 foot view. Pick your metaphor. A strong 2 next trump hand should be stronger than a weak 3 reverse next trump hand.
If I wanted to consider the players on Euchre 3D. I consider them weak. I will give them a maximum credit of 0.25 point to impact the game (in a manner that I can consistently predict). [On Monday Nights, I will credit up to 0.75 points, triple the weak player impact, to adjust my hand].
So the maximum adjstment I would make, based on your Euchre 3D experience is:
________0.00________vs______0.25
Total____2.75________vs_____2.50
So I would still order Next

But what if I held (Card_9-H) (Card_A-H) (Card_J-D) ?
Jd is +0.25 vs the Kh
Bower+1 is +0.25
So the hand is now worth 3.00 vs. 2.75 by going Next. I am going Reverse Next in Hearts.
By using BPS, you can analyze all these factors with confidence. You can find the inflection point, where 3 trump is more valuable than Next, from Seat 1. You can accurately analyze the impact that a player may have on the hand.
With 3 hours of learning BPS, you can increase your skills considerably. By increasing your skills you will enjoy Euchre considerably more. That will make you happier. That will make your spouse, kids, co-workers, friends and the entire world happier!! Believe it or not, that is my story of learning how to play Euchre the last 32 months! Thank you Ohio Euchre.


Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1301
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:02 pm

With:

(Card_9-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_J-S) (Card_Q-C)

I call Next and lead the KH. L+1 with 2 voids is a decent hand for this situation. I feel confident it will outperform crossing the river with a 3 low heart 3 suited hand.

A more interesting comparison would be which way to go with these holdings:

(Card_9-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C)

(Card_9-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_Q-C) (Card_10-C)

(Card_9-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-C)

I would call clubs in that case too but I wouldn't be surprised if a good simulation proved me wrong.

Now if I had:

(Card_9-H) (Card_A-H) (Card_J-D) (Card_J-S) (Card_Q-C)

I would pass up 5-2. Here we have a decent euchre hand with all suits blocked and approx 2 tricks in every suit. Crossing the river with a 3 suited L+2+0 off aces hand is still a marginal call. I would say never call marginal when you have a decent euchre hand, the exception being when your opponents are at nine, but even then I wonder if passing may be better depending on the exact nature of your euchre hand. I mean obviously passing is best if you have 4 jacks and an off Ace when your opponents are at 9 and your team is at 8 or less but I'm sure there are other strong euchre hands where passing is best too. Where's the cutoff when a euchre hand is not quite strong enough to pass and go for the euchre when you're opponents are at 9 and your team has 8 pts or less? IDK. Would be fun to test that out.

Richardb02
Posts: 633
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Unread post by Richardb02 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:26 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:02 pm
With:

(Card_9-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_J-S) (Card_Q-C)

I call Next and lead the KH. L+1 with 2 voids is a decent hand for this situation. I feel confident it will outperform crossing the river with a 3 low heart 3 suited hand.
I failed to evaluate the voids! Let me try again, in my more familiar format.
0.50 S1 R2
0.75 Next
0.75 Left, Js
0.50 Qc
0.25 L+1
0.75 2 Voids (2 suited)
3.50 vs 2.25 Edge Hand

0.50 S1 R2
0.25 9h
0.50 Qh
0.50 Kh
0.50 3 Trump, no bowers
0.25 1 Void
2.50 vs 2.25 Edge Hand but awful compared to 3.50 Next in Clubs

A more interesting comparison would be which way to go with these holdings:

(Card_9-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C)

Let’s evaluate
0.50 S1 R2
0.75 Next
0.75 Kc
0.50 2 Voids (2 suited)
2.50 vs 2.25 Edge Hand

0.50 S1 R2
0.25 9h
0.50 Qh
0.50 Kh
0.50 3 Trump, no bowers
0.25 1 Void
2.50 vs 2.50 Next, You choose! I like 3 weak RN vs 2 weak Next. 3 is bigger.



(Card_9-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_Q-C) (Card_10-C)

Let’s evaluate:
0.50 S1 R2
0.75 Next
0.25 Tc
0.50 Qc0.75 2 Voids (2 suited)
2.00 vs 2.25 Edge Hand. Pass.

0.50 S1 R2
0.25 9h
0.50 Qh
0.50 Kh
0.50 3 Trump, no bowers
0.25 1 Void
2.50 vs 2.25 Edge Hand And better than 2.00 Next hand. Order.



(Card_9-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-C)

I would call clubs in that case too but I wouldn't be surprised if a good simulation proved me wrong.
This is even weaker than the previous hand. So there is no reason to apply the BPS.
Now if I had:

(Card_9-H) (Card_A-H) (Card_J-D) (Card_J-S) (Card_Q-C)

I would pass up 5-2. Here we have a decent euchre hand with all suits blocked and approx 2 tricks in every suit. Crossing the river with a 3 suited L+2+0 off aces hand is still a marginal call. I would say never call marginal when you have a decent euchre hand, the exception being when your opponents are at nine, but even then I wonder if passing may be better depending on the exact nature of your euchre hand. I mean obviously passing is best if you have 4 jacks and an off Ace when your opponents are at 9 and your team is at 8 or less but I'm sure there are other strong euchre hands where passing is best too. Where's the cutoff when a euchre hand is not quite strong enough to pass and go for the euchre when you're opponents are at 9 and your team has 8 pts or less? IDK. Would be fun to test that out.
I really like your concept. It is an advanced concept but it too can work with a BPS (Bidding Point System)! The simple keys:
1. Adjust the BPS from 0.25 to 0.75 maximum.
2. 0.75 corresponds to a hand with the strongest possibility of euchring opponent. You would have to replace the (Card_Q-C) with a (Card_J-C) to meet this criteria. IMO.
3. The hand as shown would earn a 0.50 downward adjustment (in favor of passing instead of ordering).
4. 0.25 would be worthy of consideration if I have 2 tricks in both Reverse Next suits with Next not necessarily being blocked.
5. One of my keys is to limit the adjustment to 0.25 to 0.75 points.
If I apply my parameters, I get:
0.50 S1R2
0.75 Next
0.75 Left
0.50 Qc
0.25 1 Void
2.75 Subtotal
-.50 just missing 2 tricks in each of 3 suits
2.25 Edge Hand. Your choice. Use your gut instinct.



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