Weekly-3/2 Over trump with Right?

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Dlan
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Weekly-3/2 Over trump with Right?

Unread post by Dlan » Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:26 am

Could this hand be an exception to the general guideline of not overtrumping with the right?

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https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D



Kszwed
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Unread post by Kszwed » Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:37 pm

That's not an exception to rule. When your double leading offsuit you expect your p to trump high. Anything else is a bs move.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:27 pm

Kszwed wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:37 pm
That's not an exception to rule. When your double leading offsuit you expect your p to trump high. Anything else is a bs move.
Just letting you guys know this is Kirsten aka KMS who was Km-East in this hand.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:54 pm

I agree with Kristen that the JD lead was "Telling my partner to Hit this hard as I have something and Need your help!" S3 misread it. Use that Right as it was obvious the maker, S2 did not want a trump lead as he had his chance on trick 2, and you also know S2 does not have the JS/AC combo either. He (S2) might be promoting another Diamond so a spade lead is bad after you use the JC. What the best players that I know do in real time is read what the "power seat" has, aka the maker holds. To me it is obvious with this hand the maker has the QC JS or QC AC and my partner has the AC or JS. So which is it? And, I might add how will you (S1) get two tricks out of the JC & 10C. And it is obvious to me, here comes a spade lead on trick 4. You just allowed the opponents to have two tricks in and the maker is behind you?
I have observed a minimum of four times this same situation occurring on OE Mondays and the Jacks fall to the last trick! But no one take offense, JUST SAYING!

Kszwed wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:37 pm
That's not an exception to rule. When your double leading offsuit you expect your p to trump high. Anything else is a bs move.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:50 am

I would like to hear from Kristen as to what she thought about S2's hand? Did you think he had another Diamond? And what did you think about the size and number of trumps he held?

Kszwed wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:37 pm
That's not an exception to rule. When your double leading offsuit you expect your p to trump high. Anything else is a bs move.

Kszwed
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Unread post by Kszwed » Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:44 pm

Wes? He had no trump. I instinctively knew exactly what my p had.
If seat 3 had 2 trump I could see him throwing off and waiting for dealer to trump throw trump again and if I have right my p can thrown low card and left on final play. If that makes sense. This game has great strategies but what sets apart players is there instincts and their reads. Like poker. Gotta know when opponents are calling weak as a defensive play which at this level should happen often.

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:10 pm

Kszwed wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:44 pm
Wes? He had no trump.


I called with 3 trump.
Kszwed wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:44 pm
I instinctively knew exactly what my p had.


This sounds crazy but it's not. When a strong S1 passes in the 2nd round after the dealer turned down a red card one should expect S1 to have black covered most of the time. If I'm S1 I will have black covered 100% of the time in this spot. So when Kirsten sees the Left in her hand she can immediately deduce that the Right should be in S1's hand.

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:20 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:54 pm
I agree with Kristen that the JD lead was "Telling my partner to Hit this hard as I have something and Need your help!"

Yep. Exactly.
irishwolf wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:54 pm
S3 misread it.
I assume you meant S1 misread it.
irishwolf wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:54 pm
Use that Right as it was obvious the maker, S2 did not want a trump lead as he had his chance on trick 2, and you also know S2 does not have the JS/AC combo either.

True, once a strong S3 player double leads the diamond, I can never have the JS/AC combo becuz S3's double diamond lead is screaming, "I have the Left or the AC, trump high mother****er!"

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:41 am

Here's another example of the play Kirsten was trying to set up in the OP: On the 3rd trick I double lead the Spade effectively telling my partner to trump high (sorry Richard :) ), but he doesn't get the message and thus we don't get the euchre:

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

Edit: Also, worthy of note. Trumping my boss Qs with the 9d doesn't accomplish anything so don't do that. You're better off throwing off the Kh than sacrificing your 9d for no reason and if you do that we also set the maker, but I'd still rather you trump high in this spot to push out the Maker's Right bower those many times he has it.

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Dlan
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Unread post by Dlan » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:13 pm

Not over trumping with the right has become a standard play for me. Most times it turns out to be correct. So many so that I’ve stopped thinking. The lesson here is ‘most doesn’t mean all’. I’ll give overtrumping more consideration in the future.

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Unread post by Richardb02 » Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:45 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:41 am
Here's another example of the play Kirsten was trying to set up in the OP: On the 3rd trick I double lead the Spade effectively telling my partner to trump high (sorry Richard :) ), but he doesn't get the message and thus we don't get the euchre:

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

Edit: Also, worthy of note. Trumping my boss Qs with the 9d doesn't accomplish anything so don't do that. You're better off throwing off the Kh than sacrificing your 9d for no reason and if you do that we also set the maker, but I'd still rather you trump high in this spot to push out the Maker's Right bower those many times he has it.
NP. I appreciate the lessons. I don’t recall anythIng similar in the OE lessons. I recall double leads being covered.

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Unread post by Dlan » Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:21 am

While covering every possible situation would be almost impossible, concepts shown for one hand may be fit others as well.
Trumping with a nine would be a waste because if in fact, they are void in that suit, then any trump they hold would overtake the 9.
https://ohioeuchre.com/E_Never_Trump_Yo ... _maybe.php

Richardb02
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Unread post by Richardb02 » Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:42 am

Thanks Dlan. The concept applies extremely well.

I use discovered the “Index” to Ohio Euchre! Click on the tab near the top of the page, “Tips Info”. Then click on “Complete listing of all Tips + Info”. I’m surprised that had not been able to find the index. Hopefully this helps others.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:41 pm

That example (as given on OE) is not correct as the dealer played it incorrectly by not over trumping, then leading trump. It is obvious to over trump was because S3 had another club as the reason for trumping his partner's ace.

So why should the dealer have to over trump the Ace? Because if he allows that trick to stand and the Left is guarded, he is euchred anyway.

It makes no sense to slough a commanding card (KC). Additionally, if you do not win that trick, an opponent can have Left guarded with the king or 9. If you over trump and lead trump he must have Left & King. So statistically, it is much better to use that Right on trick 2. And it only takes one trick anyway. Holding the right all depends on the situation and this is not it. Hanging onto it is clearly incorrect.

So trump and lead trump as you now hold a trump & KC and S1 has to have the Left & King. If that is so, so be it.

~Irishwolf

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:54 am

Richardb02 wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:45 pm
NP. I appreciate the lessons. I don’t recall anythIng similar in the OE lessons. I recall double leads being covered. [/color]
The general idea is say you just took a trick and you still have the Left or the Ace of trump in your hand, and the Maker is on your Left, lead a non-fresh suit if you can. When you do this you're actually putting your partner in a potential squeeze. This is not something you want to randomly do. If your partner is a good hand reader or he is familiar with your play, he'll know you're taking this line for a calculated reason, becuz you want him to trump high and try to force out the Maker's boss trump to promote yours to boss status, which can then possible lead to a euchre.

Kirsten's hand in the OP and my hand are excellent examples of this play.

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:55 am

irishwolf wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:41 pm
That example (as given on OE) is not correct as the dealer played it incorrectly by not over trumping, then leading trump. It is obvious to over trump was because S3 had another club as the reason for trumping his partner's ace.

So why should the dealer have to over trump the Ace? Because if he allows that trick to stand and the Left is guarded, he is euchred anyway.

It makes no sense to slough a commanding card (KC). Additionally, if you do not win that trick, an opponent can have Left guarded with the king or 9. If you over trump and lead trump he must have Left & King. So statistically, it is much better to use that Right on trick 2. And it only takes one trick anyway. Holding the right all depends on the situation and this is not it. Hanging onto it is clearly incorrect.

So trump and lead trump as you now hold a trump & KC and S1 has to have the Left & King. If that is so, so be it.

~Irishwolf
Good stuff Irishwolf.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:41 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:54 am
Richardb02 wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:45 pm
NP. I appreciate the lessons. I don’t recall anythIng similar in the OE lessons. I recall double leads being covered. [/color]
The general idea is say you just took a trick and you still have the Left or the Ace of trump in your hand, and the Maker is on your RIGHT, lead a non-fresh suit if you can. When you do this you're actually putting your partner in a potential squeeze. This is not something you want to randomly do. If your partner is a good hand reader or he is familiar with your play, he'll know you're taking this line for a calculated reason, becuz you want him to trump high and try to force out the Maker's boss trump to promote yours to boss status, which can then possible lead to a euchre.

Kirsten's hand in the OP and my hand are excellent examples of this play.
Fixed my post, as we are talking about scenarios when the maker is on our right.

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:01 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:41 pm
Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:54 am
Richardb02 wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:45 pm
NP. I appreciate the lessons. I don’t recall anythIng similar in the OE lessons. I recall double leads being covered. [/color]
The general idea is say you just took a trick and you still have the Left or the Ace of trump in your hand, and the Maker is on your RIGHT, lead a non-fresh suit if you can. When you do this you're actually putting your partner in a potential squeeze. This is not something you want to randomly do. If your partner is a good hand reader or he is familiar with your play, he'll know you're taking this line for a calculated reason, becuz you want him to trump high and try to force out the Maker's boss trump to promote yours to boss status, which can then possible lead to a euchre.

Kirsten's hand in the OP and my hand are excellent examples of this play.
Fixed my post, as we are talking about scenarios when the maker is on our right.
Here's a variation of the "double lead when the maker is on your Right" play.

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

Notice I'm double leading the club even though I do not hold a high trump such as the Left or the Ace of trump. Why am I doing this? The reason is the maker as the dealer already had a chance to create a void, so when the maker plays the JC on the first lead there's a very good chance he's stuck with the remaining KC. So if I lead clubs again, I give my team a chance at a potential cheap trick, as my P can likely safely trump in without the Maker overtrumping. Of course S2 always has a chance to blow up the play with a high trump (as he did) but those are the breaks. Notice tho if S2 is void in trump or just has the 9D, my team will have the maker euchred every time provided that my P, S3 can read the hand well with his R+1. Say S2 is void in trump and now the action is on my P. If he understands that the maker has a good chance of having another club then he will of course trump low and go for the instant euchre and he will succeed!

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:13 am

He're a standard spot to double lead the maker on your Right:

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

After S1 takes a trick, he should double lead the Heart on the 3rd trick. S1 has a high trump (Ac) that his P could promote if he trumps high. Plus the dealer could still have the AH and thus a double heart lead could set up S1's team to get a cheap trick. If S3 gets that cheap trick now the maker is in a potential squeeze with the Ac behind him, a recipe for a euchre. Not in this case tho as the maker already had a sure point with one trick in and both bowers left, but that's not the point.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:38 am

Yep, the KH was the better lead. You don't know, the dealer may have just the right, but your partner most likely has a diamond and no hearts.

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