Weekly-3/2 Alone on 8?

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Dlan
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Weekly-3/2 Alone on 8?

Unread post by Dlan » Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:21 am

Are there times when you should call alone on 8 points?

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Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:05 pm

Dlan wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:21 am
Are there times when you should call alone on 8 points?
Sure of course. A classic example is if you were the dealer going alone in clubs with:

(Card_K-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_J-S) (Card_K-H) (Card_Q-H)

Your P having the (Card_A-H) could easily screw up your team's chances of getting 2 points so you should go alone.

Your hand:

(Card_J-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_A-D)

Is a bit more controversial and it goes back to the argument Irishwolf made in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=323

The problem with going alone is you're inducing S1 to play more correctly vs your range. Notice what happened when you went alone. I led the 10D, the exact worst lead for your holding, luckily you escaped. But if you had just called, now my leads tend to veer toward singleton green, and thus I would've led the 9C which is an awesome lead for your holding. This dynamic--the fact that S1's leading range changes based on whether you go alone or not--is very important. Kudos to Irishwolf for being the first to bring this up as I have never seen this talked about in any euchre literature I have ever read, and I have never heard any strong players talk about it either, but it's real. I think just calling and inducing S1 to make friendlier leads for your holding is the better play. I think creating this favorable dynamic outweighs the rare time your P gets in the way with your holding.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:38 am

Especially true when holding the ace in next. Many against a loner will lead next off suit. In this example S1 has a choice of clubs or diamonds and saving his only potential stopper spades. I brought up this same discussion on ES about 2009, where it was a big discussion and no one there among some very excellent players had never considered it. Only one there after much discussion still objected. Guess who that was . . .? Lol,

Lawyers never admit they are wrong!

Richardb02
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Unread post by Richardb02 » Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:18 pm

Please bear with me while I go back to the basics of:
Defending Against a Lone, from Ohio Euchre, starting at:
Https://ohioeuchre.com/E_loneDef.php

I could not get the link to work. You may have to type the address into your browser. You can also go to Euchre Lessons, find search and search on:
“Defending against a Lone”

The guidance is you can easily stop a Lone if your hold:
The Right
A Protected Left (Lx trump)
A Protected Ace (Axx)
Simply, but not so simply, hold your protected winner until you have the last play

If the Lone is called from S3 (Seat 3, you and Partner are S2 & 4):
S1 sit outs, S2 leads Next and S4, Dealer, has discarded hopefully Next and can Trump or over-trump S3

Important Note, if an Ace is lead and you are Void, lead your highest trump, unless you only have a 9 Of trump, which is no better than the Ace.

Much more common is, if you have a single (not necessarily a Singleton) Ace, do NOT lead the Ace. Lead your shortest suit.

If you have 2 Aces, lead the Ace in your shortest suit. That gives you Ace the best probability of winning the trick. Even more importantly, you stop the probable scenario of Partner having 2 Aces at Trick 4 and having a 50% probability of discarding the wrong Ace.

If you are now playing the 4th trick, assuming that you have taken no tricks, and have 2 Aces, keep the Green Ace (the opposite color of trump). If you have an Ace of an unknown suit and an “x” of a suit played by Maker, discard the Ace. Always, keep track of the cards and play appropriately.

Finally if your hand is junk, keep in mind that a T (ten) will still take a 9. Maker may call a Lone with 4 trump and a 9. So keeping the T is important. Never, play mindlessly.

I think that succinctly summarizes the OE (Ohio Euchre) lessons. Please post anything that you think that I missed.

Now Wes adds the recommendation of leading Next (the suit of the same color as trump) from S1 or S2. BTW, I have been experimenting with this same strategy. My question is, how “settled“ is this strategy and is there any other guidance? For instance, assuming no Aces, I lead Next if I have Next + 1. But if I have a Singleton Next, I hesitate, because the probabilities are reduced that Partner will be able to trump my lead. Please post your guidance.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:27 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:18 pm
Now Wes adds the recommendation of leading Next (the suit of the same color as trump) from S1 or S2. BTW, I have been experimenting with this same strategy. My question is, how “settled“ is this strategy and is there any other guidance? For instance, assuming no Aces, I lead Next if I have Next + 1. But if I have a Singleton Next, I hesitate, because the probabilities are reduced that Partner will be able to trump my lead. Please post your guidance.
I don't reflexively lead Next from S1. What I lead depends on the cards I hold. Come up with any example and I'll tell you which card I would lead.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:43 am

You have said nothing about that working together you MUST slough as soon as possible what you are NOT going to save.


Important Note, if an Ace is lead and you are Void, lead your highest trump, unless you only have a 9 Of trump, which is no better than the Ace. (MAKES NO SENSE - LEAD YOUR HIGHEST TRUMP????????)

Much more common is, if you have a single (not necessarily a Singleton) Ace, do NOT lead the Ace. Lead your shortest suit. (LEAD YOUR SHORTEST SUIT - NO WAY - LEAD YOU LONGEST SUIT! HOLD THE ACE!)

If you have 2 Aces, lead the Ace in your shortest suit. That gives you Ace the best probability of winning the trick. Even more importantly, you stop the probable scenario of Partner having 2 Aces at Trick 4 (TOO MANY ACES HERE!)

Now Wes adds the recommendation of leading Next (the suit of the same color as trump) from S1 or S2. (Only when S3 is going alone, S2 leads next. The rest is BS depending on what you hold. NOTE: Don't discount that the Dealer will be discarding Next if possible when the choice has the same or approximate value.)

Richardb02
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Unread post by Richardb02 » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:00 am

Let’s start with the OP hand: (Card_J-H)
S1 (Card_9-C) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_9-H)
S4 goes Lone.
I have no aces so I am looking for the best option:
My shortest green suit, (Card_9-C) , hoping P has the off suit boss.
Or Next (Card_10-D) hoping P is void and has a high trump

You recommend leading Next with this hand. I recommend leading green because I only have a singleton next, which decreases the probability that P is void. Please comment.

If I held more trump:
(Card_9-C) (Card_10-D) (Card_Q-S) (Card_9-H) (Card_Q-H)
I would be even less likely to lead Next, Maker and I have the trump cards. P is less likely to have a trump.

If I held more in Next:
(Card_9-C) (Card_10-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_Q-S) (Card_9-H)
I would definitely lead Next

Since leading Next is a subset of “finding a suit where P is void”, I would lead a long suit, hoping P is void and can trump. Example:
(Card_9-C) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_Q-S)
I would lead (Card_9-S)

Can you recommend other hands?

Richardb02
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Unread post by Richardb02 » Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:27 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:43 am
You have said nothing about that working together you MUST slough as soon as possible what you are NOT going to save.
You are 100% right. I missed this topic. It is also a weakness of my play in defending against a lone. Would you please reduce this concept to a few sentences and I will edit my post?

Important Note, if an Ace is lead and you are Void, lead your highest trump, unless you only have a 9 Of trump, which is no better than the Ace. (MAKES NO SENSE - LEAD YOUR HIGHEST TRUMP????????)
My wording needs to be clarified. Would you agree with the following statement? P leads an Ace and you are void in that suit. Play a trump if you have one and play your higher trump if you have two. There is an exception. Do not play your 9 trump. The 9 trump has no more power, to take a trick, than the Ace.

Much more common is, if you have a single (not necessarily a Singleton) Ace, do NOT lead the Ace. Lead your shortest suit. (LEAD YOUR SHORTEST SUIT - NO WAY - LEAD YOU LONGEST SUIT! HOLD THE ACE!)
I did not reflect the guidance from OE, I added shortest suit. You strongly recommend lead your longest suit. Let's regroup. Here is a quote from OE: "If you hold a single ace, do not lead it. If that ace is the stopper, it will still be the stopper at the end of the hand. Instead, give your partner a chance to play by leading another suit. He may hold the ace to the suit that you lead, which will allow him to make that ace good. The idea here is that if your partner holds two aces, he will not have to choose between them on the fourth trick. How many times have you seen someone get down to the last two cards and throw away the wrong ace? This will stop that from happening."
The guidance is limited to "play by leading another suit." I will change the base guidance to reflect, lead another suit. Let's discuss shortest suit vs longest suit, which I suggest is equivalent to fishing for a boss off suit vs. fishing for a void. I cover that topic in the next segment of this post.

Now Wes adds the recommendation of leading Next (the suit of the same color as trump) from S1 or S2. (Only when S3 is going alone, S2 leads next. The rest is BS depending on what you hold. NOTE: Don't discount that the Dealer will be discarding Next if possible when the choice has the same or approximate value.)
We agree on this point. Wes is responding to a separate post on this thread. That post includes "when to fish for a void vs. when to fish for a boss off-suit", decision to stop a lone.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:17 pm

Just so you know this is a complex topic, stopping the loner and best outlined by defense broken down into the four positions. Too complex to have one strategy fits all. I don't want to get into each one. So I am concluding with these comments:

"You are 100% right. I missed this topic. It is also a weakness of my play in defending against a lone. Would you please reduce this concept to a few sentences and I will edit my post?"

It is basically simple, "slough the suit you are NOT going to save ASAP!" This especially critical when S1 goes alone as you have three suits to defend from the start. However, with S4 going alone, suppose you have two aces (your hand: AD AS 9S QH JC) and hearts is the trump suit. You play AS to the first trick and dealer trumps it and leads JH, then the JD. What do you play to the 3rd trick? NOT the 9S, you play the JC. Your partner already knows spades are dead. He/she needs to know that you are not going to save Clubs. MOST players get this wrong.


"Let's discuss shortest suit vs longest suit, which I suggest is equivalent to fishing for a boss off suit vs. fishing for a void. I cover that topic in the next segment of this post."

If S2 is going alone I would always lead from a suit I have 3 or 4 of the same suit. If you don't have next at S2 and S3 is going alone, I would lead from a suit of three. If I had a King doubleton and a King singleton, yes lead the singleton and save the doubleton. So the lead from a short suit has to be qualified. Save those doubletons and lead a singleton then applies but it must be looked at by which seat is going alone.

What makes going alone complex to defend is that there are so many different cards the maker might have. He might have a low trailer (King or below), all trump, all trump with an Ace, an Ace with a trailer of a different suit, a doubleton off suit, etc. So hitting your partner void is one thing but look at the other combinations as well!

"My wording needs to be clarified. Would you agree with the following statement? P leads an Ace and you are void in that suit. Play a trump if you have one and play your higher trump if you have two. There is an exception. Do not play your 9 trump. The 9 trump has no more power, to take a trick, than the Ace."

This is okay!

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:39 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:00 am
Let’s start with the OP hand: (Card_J-H)
S1 (Card_9-C) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_9-H)
S4 goes Lone.
I have no aces so I am looking for the best option:
My shortest green suit, (Card_9-C) , hoping P has the off suit boss.
Or Next (Card_10-D) hoping P is void and has a high trump

You recommend leading Next with this hand. I recommend leading green because I only have a singleton next, which decreases the probability that P is void. Please comment.
The instant you look at this hand you should know right away that your holding your Qs9s to the end hoping to stop the maker when they have an outside AsTs, KsJs, etc. After that, you now wanna lead the suit your P is most likely void in, which is diamonds, as there are less diamonds left in the deck than clubs. Therefore lead diamonds. Your P will usually only have one chance to trump in, and that's on the first lead. After that it's all over, so try to find his void on that first lead.
Richardb02 wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:00 am
If I held more trump:
(Card_9-C) (Card_10-D) (Card_Q-S) (Card_9-H) (Card_Q-H)
I would be even less likely to lead Next, Maker and I have the trump cards. P is less likely to have a trump.
With this holding you should lead the (Card_10-D) as diamonds is the suit your P is mostly likely void in. Doing the best you can to find your P's void is all you can do in this spot.
Richardb02 wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:00 am
If I held more in Next:
(Card_9-C) (Card_10-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_Q-S) (Card_9-H)
I would definitely lead Next
I lead Next in this spot for the same reasons as above.
Richardb02 wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:00 am
Since leading Next is a subset of “finding a suit where P is void”, I would lead a long suit, hoping P is void and can trump. Example:
(Card_9-C) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_Q-S)
I would lead (Card_9-S)
I would lead the (Card_9-S) also, for the same reasons as above.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:41 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:17 pm
Just so you know this is a complex topic, stopping the loner and best outlined by defense broken down into the four positions. Too complex to have one strategy fits all. I don't want to get into each one. So I am concluding with these comments:

"You are 100% right. I missed this topic. It is also a weakness of my play in defending against a lone. Would you please reduce this concept to a few sentences and I will edit my post?"

It is basically simple, "slough the suit you are NOT going to save ASAP!" This especially critical when S1 goes alone as you have three suits to defend from the start. However, with S4 going alone, suppose you have two aces (your hand: AD AS 9S QH JC) and hearts is the trump suit. You play AS to the first trick and dealer trumps it and leads JH, then the JD. What do you play to the 3rd trick? NOT the 9S, you play the JC. Your partner already knows spades are dead. He/she needs to know that you are not going to save Clubs. MOST players get this wrong.


"Let's discuss shortest suit vs longest suit, which I suggest is equivalent to fishing for a boss off suit vs. fishing for a void. I cover that topic in the next segment of this post."

If S2 is going alone I would always lead from a suit I have 3 or 4 of the same suit. If you don't have next at S2 and S3 is going alone, I would lead from a suit of three. If I had a King doubleton and a King singleton, yes lead the singleton and save the doubleton. So the lead from a short suit has to be qualified. Save those doubletons and lead a singleton then applies but it must be looked at by which seat is going alone.

What makes going alone complex to defend is that there are so many different cards the maker might have. He might have a low trailer (King or below), all trump, all trump with an Ace, an Ace with a trailer of a different suit, a doubleton off suit, etc. So hitting your partner void is one thing but look at the other combinations as well!

"My wording needs to be clarified. Would you agree with the following statement? P leads an Ace and you are void in that suit. Play a trump if you have one and play your higher trump if you have two. There is an exception. Do not play your 9 trump. The 9 trump has no more power, to take a trick, than the Ace."

This is okay!
Excellent post Wolf.

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