How does Going Under Option affect play?

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jblowery
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 am

How does Going Under Option affect play?

Unread post by jblowery » Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:51 pm

I know karman euchre has this option available. As a result you'll be playing against better hands on average, particularly during second round of bidding. How does this impact your bidding threshold or play, if at all? I know the differences are minor.
Last edited by jblowery on Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:42 pm

jblowery wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:51 pm
I know karman euchre has this option available. As a result you'll be playing against better hands on average, particularly during second round of bidding. How does this impact your bidding threshold or play, if at all? I know the differences are minor.
I can't talk about this all in one post cuz it will get too long. Here's one thing to keep in mind (I'll say more on the topic in other posts):

Ace high loners as the dealer do not work when one of your opponents go under. For example, say your team is down 9-6, and you're the dealer with:

(Card_A-H) upcard

(Card_K-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_9-S)

So if you pick up you have 5 trump.

If S1 or S3 go under, you can't go alone becuz you'll NEVER make it. Why? Well it's based on the assumption that if S2 had both bowers he would've ordered you up. Since he did not, and there's now no significant buried cards, one of your opponents will always have at least 1 bower. So if you go alone your team will always get just 1 point, but if you call, your team could get 2 points since it's still possible for your P to have the lone Right.

Note: What I just said is not strictly true, if S2 has 4 bowers he could pass in the first round. Ok sure, but that's an 11 out of 3,003 chance and that's assuming S2 never orders up anyways with that hand. IOW, that micro-probability is not worth considering.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:01 pm

Be prepared to gamble on your partner's under.

Example:

(Card_Q-D) upcard. The score is 0-0, you're the dealer with:

(Card_K-D) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S)

S1 passes, S2 goes under, S3 passes and now the action is on you. I'm ordering this up EVERY time. When you block nothing, picking up with two low trump is worth it IF your P goes under. This is the perfect spot to gamble on your P's under hoping he undered into a strong enough holding for you guys to eke out a point. And if it fails don't worry about it. The theoretical cost of a euchre is near its lowest point when you have a hand with no aces that blocks nothing.

The time I think about gambling on my P's under is when I block no suits or I only block 1 out of 3 suits. If I block 2 out of 3 suits then I back off. That's enough defense to not take chances with super-marginals. HOWEVER if the score is 9-9, and you don't have some super euchre hand if you pass, it's probably correct to gamble on your P's under no matter what you have. Always keep that in mind, it's like having an extra chance to win a game. Very few players know this tactic, and it's critical to know. Nothing is sadder than going under from the 2 seat at 9-9 and having a partner who doesn't understand that they have to gamble on their P's under at that score.

Outside of 9-9 scenarios, the question is how low can we go assuming we block no suits or 1 out of 3? Well the answer is IDK. Should we call with 1 low trump + two off aces? I think so. What about worse. Maybe it's correct to always gamble on our P's under if we block nothing no matter what we have! Even one low trump and nothing else! I think that may be true, and that's what I do, but I am not confident that that play is correct (at scores where a euchre really hurts like if my opponents are at 8, or the score is 7-7 or something, then I back off). What's important here is that you are cognizant of this dynamic. Out of around 10K daily players I would say maybe 5-10 at the most utilize this tactic which is part of the reason why that very small group are the strongest players on the app.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:27 pm

When your opponents go under you can't make marginal defensive calls as the dealer:

Example hand:

Score is 0-0, the upcard is the (Card_K-D), you're the dealer with:

(Card_Q-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S)

2 low trump + a green doubleton Ace is an order for me when I block no suits, BUT if one of your opponents go under fahgettaboudit. It's a suicide mission. You'll just get euchred nearly every time. The defense isn't worth it if you're gonna get euchred that often.

Even two trump + 2 off aces, a super standard call, becomes a pass if your opponents go under.

Example hand, score is 0-0:

Diamonds are trump, if you pick up, you'll have this hand as the dealer:

(Card_K-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_K-C) (Card_A-H)

If your opponents go under, believe it or not, that's a pass now. It just gets euchred WAY too often now, too often to make up for the defensive virtues of the call. Now if you have a big lead, and one of your opponents go under, you can try it anyways hoping to get lucky. Maybe it's worth it then as there's more incentive to play defensively with large leads. BTW at 9-9, I'm still calling with that hand even if my opponents go under. It's a sh***y situation but it likely aint gonna get better if you pass.

Even Left + 1 + an off ace as the dealer--a standard call imo if you block 1 out of 3 suits or less--is a pass if one of your opponents go under:

Score is 0-0, trump is hearts. You have:

(Card_J-D) (Card_10-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_Q-D)

Pass that hand if S1 or S3 go under. It will get euchred too often now. The defensive benefits are no longer worth it.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:35 pm

Here's an amusing example:

Score is 0-0. Your partner, a strong player, is the dealer.

The upcard is the (Card_J-S).

You're in the 2 seat with:

(Card_K-S) (Card_J-D) (Card_J-H) (Card_A-D) (Card_K-D)

S1 goes under, you pass, S3 passes and the dealer turns down the bower. The action gets to you in the 2nd round. You should just call! Your partner can never have the AS as he would've called in the 1st round, and the AS is never buried since S1 went under, thus the AS is always in enemy hands, so you'll virtually never get the 4 point sweep. So just call and go for 2.

Ok Let's say you just call, and S1 leads the (Card_10-C)

Should you throw off your loser KS hoping your P can take the trick on this garbage club lead? NO. DO NOT DO THAT!! Trump the TC, then lead the KS. Why? Becuz we KNOW your P is void in spades given that he turned down the JS. Utilize that information! If your P has 1 trump you guys will get 2 points nearly every time.

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