OHIO WEEKLY 1 14 - ANOTHER HAND OF INTEREST?

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irishwolf
Posts: 700
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

OHIO WEEKLY 1 14 - ANOTHER HAND OF INTEREST?

Unread post by irishwolf » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:57 pm

Is it possible to make someone panic? This occurred on Tuesday for a euchre:

9D UP S2 ASSISTS - diamonds is trump.
TKS 1 2 3 4 5
S1 QH JS AC KC 9H
S2 9S JD QC TD AD
S3 KH JH 9C QD QS
D4 TH 9D TS KS AS

So it begs the question(s):

1) Should you always go 2nd hand low? PONE stripes the dealer of his only trump (and eldest has none, lol).

2) If you have commanding cards do you lead trump again (what was 2nd seat thinking)?

3) How would you play this hand at 2nd seat?

4) Or is this just SHIT HAPPENS?

~Irishwolf



Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:09 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:57 pm
Is it possible to make someone panic? This occurred on Tuesday for a euchre:

9D UP S2 ASSISTS - diamonds is trump.
TKS 1 2 3 4 5
S1 QH JS AC KC 9H
S2 9S JD QC TD AD
S3 KH JH 9C QD QS
D4 TH 9D TS KS AS

So it begs the question(s):
This hand is too difficult to talk about with a video of the hand so here it is:

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D
irishwolf wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:57 pm
1) Should you always go 2nd hand low? PONE stripes the dealer of his only trump (and eldest has none, lol).
First off, Seat 1 leads the QH (edit) instead of his off AC. I agree with this line, with a tripleton green ace, I'd rather hold it back and hope to make it good later after trump has been led. I have no hard data backing up this preference and I'd be very interested to see if others agree or disagree with me and why.

After 1st Seat leads the QH (edit), I'm always playing off on this card from this configuration. I'm not gonna risk getting overtrumped on the first lead, a risk that goes up with a Next lead. Plus the maker just called for a reason. He presumably may need his partner's help. His partner is more likely to be able to help on a garbage heart lead than in spades or clubs given that we already know that Seat 1 doesn't have the AH. That's vital information we need to take advantage of, so the Maker should throw off the 9S on the first lead which he did.
irishwolf wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:57 pm
2) If you have commanding cards do you lead trump again (what was 2nd seat thinking)?
IDK what the 2 seat was thinking but of course I would love to speculate!

The 2 seat has to seriously worry about whether the 3rd seat holds the last 2 trump (KdQd). The fact that the 3rd seat led the Left on the 2nd lead does positively correlate with the 3 seat starting out with 3 trump given that the vast majority of players are not leading with Left + 1 in this spot for fear of breaking up their guarded left. So 3rd Seat's line mostly correlates with having just 1 trump or 3 trump. If the 3rd seat started with 3 trump, then the Maker should lead the QC on the third trick attempting to set up an end play. And if the 3rd seat started out with 1 trump, just the Left, then leading the QC on the 3rd trick will not hurt the maker either. The maker only gets burned by this line when a parlay occurs:

1) Third Seat started out with 2 trump, and

2) The First Seat wins the Club trick putting the Maker in an FU squeeze spot.

Even those times the 3rd seat has just 1 trump left, and thus leading the QC on the 3rd trick is not ideal, we can still escape if our partner has the boss club or the last trump (KD) and trumps in.
irishwolf wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:57 pm
3) How would you play this hand at 2nd seat?
I would actually play this hand the same as the Maker every street, and hate my life afterwards when I see the cards.
irishwolf wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:57 pm
4) Or is this just SHIT HAPPENS?

~Irishwolf
What ultimately happened here is 3rd Seat made a world class play and put the Maker in a tough spot, and hindsight-wise the Maker choose wrongly. That's what strong players do. They put their enemy in tough spots. And BTW this is a world class play that virtually no one on this board understands well evidenced by the fact that so many people argued against your Right lead in that one thread:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=277

Even tho your math was extremely compelling and all the other side had was weak generalizations and platitudes backing their views up. People don't really understand that a big advantage of a 2 seat Maker is always having a partner who is guaranteed to have a trump + a void. So they don't see the value of blowing that advantage up, which is what you did in both hands.
Last edited by Wes (aka the legend) on Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Richardb02
Posts: 581
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Unread post by Richardb02 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:54 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:09 pm
irishwolf wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:57 pm
Is it possible to make someone panic? This occurred on Tuesday for a euchre:

9D UP S2 ASSISTS - diamonds is trump.
TKS 1 2 3 4 5
S1 QH JS AC KC 9H
S2 9S JD QC TD AD
S3 KH JH 9C QD QS
D4 TH 9D TS KS AS

So it begs the question(s):
This hand is too difficult to talk about with a video of the hand so here it is:

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D
Please post the video if you have it. Use full editor if you do not. Please note that the cards posted does not match the video. That happens. Please just be careful.

BTW, I am S1.
irishwolf wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:57 pm
1) Should you always go 2nd hand low? PONE stripes the dealer of his only trump (and eldest has none, lol).
Wes says, from an S2 perspective:
First off, Seat 1 leads the 9H instead of his off AC. I agree with this line, with a tripleton green ace, I'd rather hold it back and hope to make it good later after trump has been led. I have no hard data backing up this preference and I'd be very interested to see if others agree or disagree with me and why.
This is basic OE lessons. Do not lead from a Tripleton. It passes my smell test, the odds are not good.
After 1st Seat leads the 9H,I lead the Qh. Please be careful. I'm always playing off on this card from this configuration. I'm not gonna risk getting overtrumped on the first lead, a risk that goes up with a Next lead. Plus the maker just called for a reason. He presumably may need his partner's help. His partner is more likely to be able to help on a garbage heart lead than in spades or clubs given that we already know that Seat 1 doesn't have the AH. That's vital information we need to take advantage of, so the Maker should throw off the 9S on the first lead which he did.
irishwolf wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:57 pm
2) If you have commanding cards do you lead trump again (what was 2nd seat thinking)?
IDK what the 2 seat was thinking but of course I would love to speculate!

The 2 seat has to seriously worry about whether the 3rd seat holds the last 2 trump (KdQd). The fact that the 3rd seat led the Left on the 2nd lead does positively correlate with the 3 seat starting out with 3 trump given that the vast majority of players are not leading with Left + 1 in this spot for fear of breaking up their guarded left. So 3rd Seat's line mostly correlates with having just 1 trump or 3 trump. If the 3rd seat started with 3 trump, then the Maker should lead the QC on the third trick attempting to set up an end play. And if the 3rd seat started out with 1 trump, just the Left, then leading the QC on the 3rd trick will not hurt the maker either. The maker only gets burned by this line when a parlay occurs:

1) Third Seat started out with 2 trump, and

2) The First Seat wins the Club trick putting the Maker in an FU squeeze spot.

Even those times the 3rd seat has just 1 trump left, and thus leading the QC on the 3rd trick is not ideal, we can still escape if our partner has the boss club or the last trump (KD) and trumps in.
irishwolf wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:57 pm
3) How would you play this hand at 2nd seat?
I would actually play this hand the same as the Maker every street, and hate my life afterwards when I see the cards.
I sum up my approach, “if you have power, play it.” It would have worked with this hand. If S3 holds KdQd (more power), we lose. That is ez to live with. Wes you understand football strategy. If you have superior power, play it.
irishwolf wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:57 pm
4) Or is this just SHIT HAPPENS?

~Irishwolf
What ultimately happened here is 3rd Seat made a world class play and put the Maker in a tough spot, and hindsight-wise the Maker choose wrongly. That's what strong players do. They put their enemy in tough spots. And BTW this is a world class play that virtually no one on this board understands well evidenced by the fact that so many people argued against your Right lead in that one thread:
Sorry Wes, the “world class play”, which it was, after a back door play, would never been available with a power play. I chew myself out, almost every time that I choose a “back door, weak play”, when I hold a power hand! Yes, even if I win the hand.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=277

Even tho your math was extremely compelling and all the other side had was weak generalizations and platitudes backing their views up. People don't really understand that a big advantage of a 2 seat Maker is always having a partner who is guaranteed to have a trump + a void. So they don't see the value of blowing that advantage up, which is what you did in both hands.
I apologize to IrishWolf and Wes, that I can not comment on this thread. I have read through the thread, but the topic is too deep for me.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:11 pm

Richard, thx for the correction. I edited my post. Also the link to the hand works for me. Just hit the "next" button I think.

Richardb02
Posts: 581
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Unread post by Richardb02 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:20 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:11 pm
Richard, thx for the correction. I edited my post. Also the link to the hand works for me. Just hit the "next" button I think.
Thank you for your correction. No harm, no foul, to me. It is just difficult for other readers to follow.

irishwolf
Posts: 700
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:35 pm

WES,
You summed it up pretty well, it was wild. We had one trick in, SO WHAT THE HELL think out of the box . . . plus I just might be taking the dealer's only trump.
As far as playing the hand, me at 2nd seat, ALTERNATIVELY, he could have trumped the heart lead. Then led either Spades or Clubs, keeping opponents in the dark and NOT splitting up your Right/Ace combo. Marches are made like that too. I am always looking at playing with different tactics.

That's safe too even if I get over trumped because pone now has to consider that the dealer's void and trump is still in play. Keeping an open mind, I think there is no right or wrong, but going for a sweep is standard to do 2nd hand low. The problem with 2nd seat assisting, the dealer will just as likely have a doubleton off suit and a singleton sometimes a triplet.

On the 2nd trick lead of JH, my comment is that the maker does not know for sure where the King and Queen are - Dealer or Pone or stock. You have no choice, if both are with Pone, it does NOT matter. Thus, you have to lead the AD and hope your low trump is boss as it makes no difference if he has both KD & QD.

WES stated, "The 2 seat has to seriously worry about whether the 3rd seat holds the last 2 trump (Kd/Qd). The fact that the 3rd seat led the Left on the 2nd lead does positively correlate with the 3 seat starting out with 3 trump given that the vast majority of players are not leading with Left + 1 in this spot for fear of breaking up their guarded left."

~Irishwolf

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:58 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:35 pm
WES,
You summed it up pretty well, it was wild. We had one trick in, SO WHAT THE HELL think out of the box . . . plus I just might be taking the dealer's only trump.
As far as playing the hand, me at 2nd seat, ALTERNATIVELY, he could have trumped the heart lead. Then led either Spades or Clubs, keeping opponents in the dark and NOT splitting up your Right/Ace combo. Marches are made like that too. I am always looking at playing with different tactics.

That's safe too even if I get over trumped because pone now has to consider that the dealer's void and trump is still in play. Keeping an open mind, I think there is no right or wrong, but going for a sweep is standard to do 2nd hand low. The problem with 2nd seat assisting, the dealer will just as likely have a doubleton off suit and a singleton sometimes a triplet.

On the 2nd trick lead of JH, my comment is that the maker does not know for sure where the King and Queen are - Dealer or Pone or stock. You have no choice, if both are with Pone, it does NOT matter. Thus, you have to lead the AD and hope your low trump is boss as it makes no difference if he has both KD & QD.

WES stated, "The 2 seat has to seriously worry about whether the 3rd seat holds the last 2 trump (Kd/Qd). The fact that the 3rd seat led the Left on the 2nd lead does positively correlate with the 3 seat starting out with 3 trump given that the vast majority of players are not leading with Left + 1 in this spot for fear of breaking up their guarded left."

~Irishwolf
Ugh F me I screwed up, you can't run an end play with AdTd against KdQd, which means the maker HAS to lead the Ad in that spot. Oops.

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