3rd Seat Order - when to not lead trump?

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irishwolf
Posts: 700
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

3rd Seat Order - when to not lead trump?

Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:14 pm

The score is 9 to 9, upcard is KD and your partner orders the dealer.
You hold JC JD TD TH QH at 1st seat.

Is there justification to not leading trump to your partner?



Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:14 pm

For a little backstory to this hand, I was the one in 3rd seat who ordered the dealer up with:

(Card_J-H) (Card_Q-D) (Card_9-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_K-S)

My partner lead the (Card_J-C) representing no trump, no aces. I was like lol I guess we're going set, gg gentlemen. Obviously the hand ended up working out in our favor becuz my partner surprisingly had a lot more help than I thought. I too was puzzled by this development.

Tbolt65
Posts: 487
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:22 pm

No, not when your 3rd seat partner orders. This is not a time to not lead trump. With this hand, or seat configuration.


Tbolt65
Edward

irishwolf
Posts: 700
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:33 pm

Yep had the dealer had the JD AS, you are euchred.

I thought, WTF. Must have been a misclick to not lead the Right?

Next question though, why not wait on a next call?

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:59 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:33 pm
Next question though, why not wait on a next call?
My default strategy with this hand is to wait on the Next call at every score except at 9-9. At 9-9, we get no benefit from euchring the dealer, so it becomes a simple question: What are the odds my P has a better 2nd round call than my first round call with Left + 2 + an off ace? I suspect--but do not "know"--that my hand will be better than my P's 2nd round range, therefore I'm calling.

irishwolf
Posts: 700
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:14 pm

It certainly was a good call that time. I would say in general with many hands dealt, 50:50! So many hands will beat the hand you had if your partner has none (35%). If that ace were a doubleton, different story.

But in this situation, you know (or should) that your partner has a heavy dose of 'making next' and you have close to two tricks in next with about the same if you order. Of course he Must call something at 9 to 9.

It was a good call, too bad at 9 to 7, I had to donate.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:28 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:14 pm
It certainly was a good call that time. I would say in general with many hands dealt, 50:50! So many hands will beat the hand you had if your partner has none (35%). If that ace were a doubleton, different story.

But in this situation, you know (or should) that your partner has a heavy dose of 'making next' and you have close to two tricks in next with about the same if you order. Of course he Must call something at 9 to 9.
Knowing my partner will veer towards Next a lot in the 2nd round still doesn't answer my question which I can reformulate a little bit: "Even knowing that my P will veer towards Next in the 2nd rd, what are the odds my team will have a better 2nd round call than my first round call with Left + 2 + an off ace?" I don't know the answer. I'm just guessing, going with faulty human intuition on this. All I know is if I pass, and the dealer passes, and my P calls black I hate my life.
irishwolf wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:14 pm
It was a good call, too bad at 9 to 7, I had to donate.
Yeah I saw that. With a bot in first, I would've donated from 3rd up 9-7 with your hand too. Sux that we only had 4 humans for what, 45 minutes? Still hopeful that this game will get more popular in the near future.

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