I'm the dealer and I have 2 of the up card suit, should I order up?

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marya
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I'm the dealer and I have 2 of the up card suit, should I order up?

Unread post by marya » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:09 pm

Hi all,

Lend me your expertise? I am trying to find out if it's always correct to order up when it will result in you getting 3 trump.

The worst-case scenario is that you will have the 3 lowest cards of the up card suit. For example, suppose the up card is the 9 of clubs (Card_9-C) and your hand is horrible:

(Card_10-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_10-D) (Card_10-H) (Card_9-H)

Always order up because it will give you 3? Yes?

Follow-up question: is there any case where you should not order up if it will give you 3 of the up card suit? Suppose I have a very nice hand in another suit? Like this:

(Card_9-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_10-H) (Card_J-H) (Card_J-D)

Marya



Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:42 pm

marya wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:09 pm
Hi all,

Lend me your expertise? I am trying to find out if it's always correct to order up when it will result in you getting 3 trump.

The worst-case scenario is that you will have the 3 lowest cards of the up card suit. For example, suppose the up card is the 9 of clubs (Card_9-C) and your hand is horrible:

(Card_10-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_10-D) (Card_10-H) (Card_9-H)

Always order up because it will give you 3? Yes?

Follow-up question: is there any case where you should not order up if it will give you 3 of the up card suit? Suppose I have a very nice hand in another suit? Like this:

(Card_9-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_10-H) (Card_J-H) (Card_J-D)

Marya

I'm usually picking up any three in most situations. The first situation, yes. The second situation, yes.


Only time I may not order up three is possibly at an 8-8 score 4 suited no aces. That's s really the only time that comes to mind.

Tbolt65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:54 pm

marya wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:09 pm
Hi all,

Lend me your expertise? I am trying to find out if it's always correct to order up when it will result in you getting 3 trump.

The worst-case scenario is that you will have the 3 lowest cards of the up card suit. For example, suppose the up card is the 9 of clubs (Card_9-C) and your hand is horrible:

(Card_10-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_10-D) (Card_10-H) (Card_9-H)

Always order up because it will give you 3? Yes?
I always order with 3 unless I have a euchre hand (Everything blocked with approx 2 tricks in every suit) and I will consider passing with a stopper hand that has 2 tricks in a Next call vs someone in Seat 1 who loves to call Next (A stopper hand is simply a hand that has all loners blocked but not necessarily 2 tricks in every suit).

With the hand above it is critical to order that up. Firstly, your team can still score a point with you having 3 trump--the hand is marginal but not hopeless--and secondly and most importantly, you must order this marginal hand up for defensive purposes. You block no loners, and you have no aces. The chances that the 1 seat has a loner sweep, a 2 point call, a 1 point call all go up significantly in this spot when you pass that particular hand, and conversely the odds that your team will euchre your opponents goes down a lot given that you have a near worthless defensive hand. This is the type of hand that is probably -EV in a vacuum but +EV overall. I.E. you will lose around a fraction of a point calling this hand in the long run but you will lose more than that if you pass this hand, therefore you must call with this.
marya wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:09 pm
Follow-up question: is there any case where you should not order up if it will give you 3 of the up card suit? Suppose I have a very nice hand in another suit? Like this:

(Card_9-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_10-H) (Card_J-H) (Card_J-D)

Marya
I still call clubs with that holding. I'm not taking the chance of passing when I have nothing in Next.

An example of a 3 trump hand I would pass:

Upcard is the (Card_10-C), I'm the dealer with:

(Card_J-H) (Card_J-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_J-S) (Card_K-S)

No point in calling with a 3 trump, 3 suited hand when I have everything blocked with approx 2+ tricks in every suit.

As far as programming the bots on your site. If it's too complicated I'd probably take the easy way out and just have them always order with 3. I mean that's close enough to correct anyways. Would be cool tho if it were possible to have the bots pass 3 trump whenever they had a euchre hand.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:59 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:42 pm
Only time I may not order up three is possibly at an 8-8 score 4 suited no aces. That's s really the only time that comes to mind.

Tbolt65
Edward
If you have 3 trump you can't be 4 suited. I suspect the cost of passing a 3 low trump, 3 suited, no off ace hand is high enough that I call at 8-8 and even up 9-8. I don't love it tho.

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marya
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Unread post by marya » Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:51 pm

Thank you both for the comments!
Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:54 pm
As far as programming the bots on your site. If it's too complicated I'd probably take the easy way out and just have them always order with 3. I mean that's close enough to correct anyways. Would be cool tho if it were possible to have the bots pass 3 trump whenever they had a euchre hand.
I don't believe it's too complicated. The problem is that I am not sophisticated enough of a Euchre player to recognize what a "euchre hand" is. Can you expand on that? I kind of get the idea - basically I can likely get 3 tricks with any other (non-upcard) suit.

Is this a "euchre hand" when the up card is a club? How well can it be quantified?

(Card_J-H) (Card_J-D) (Card_J-S) (Card_A-S) (Card_A-H)

Marya

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:20 pm

marya wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:51 pm
Thank you both for the comments!
Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:54 pm
As far as programming the bots on your site. If it's too complicated I'd probably take the easy way out and just have them always order with 3. I mean that's close enough to correct anyways. Would be cool tho if it were possible to have the bots pass 3 trump whenever they had a euchre hand.
I don't believe it's too complicated. The problem is that I am not sophisticated enough of a Euchre player to recognize what a "euchre hand" is. Can you expand on that? I kind of get the idea - basically I can likely get 3 tricks with any other (non-upcard) suit.

Is this a "euchre hand" when the up card is a club? How well can it be quantified?

(Card_J-H) (Card_J-D) (Card_J-S) (Card_A-S) (Card_A-H)

Marya
Yep that's a euchre hand, a monster euchre hand with approx 3+ tricks in every suit.

Prerequisites for a euchre hand:

1) You must have all suits stopped, I.E. all loners blocked.

2) You must have at least approximately 2 tricks in every suit.

An example of a stopper hand that's not a euchre hand:

The (Card_K-H) was turned down, you're in the 1 seat with:

(Card_J-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_10-D) (Card_J-C) (Card_10-S)

That hand has all suits stopped but is NOT a euchre hand becuz you do not have approximately 2 tricks in every suit. You just have 1 trick in every suit. So that's a stopper hand.



Here's some examples of a euchre hand:

Dealer turns down the (Card_9-S), you're in the 1 seat with:

(Card_J-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_Q-H) (Card_J-H)

You have all suits blocked with approx 2 tricks in every suit. Pass this hand and go for the euchre except at 9-9--at that score euchring your opponents has no value. At 9-9, call diamonds and hope for the best.

Dealer upcard is the (Card_K-H), you're in the 2 seat with:

(Card_A-H) (Card_J-H) (Card_A-D) (Card_J-S) (Card_J-C)

Don't order your partner up. You have a euchre hand with approx 2 tricks in every suit plus a nice black loner in the 2nd round.

Dealer upcard is the (Card_A-S), you're in the 3rd seat with:

(Card_J-C) (Card_K-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_J-H)

If the AS is turned down, your KS becomes boss, thus you now have approx 2 tricks in every suit with all suits stopped. Pass this hand. Don't call in the toughest Seat in the game and fight for a point when you have a euchre hand.

Upcard is the (Card_J-D), you're the dealer with:

(Card_A-H) (Card_J-H) (Card_K-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_J-S)

Don't call and fight for a point when if you pass you have a strong euchre hand with a strong loner in clubs.

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:40 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:59 pm
Tbolt65 wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:42 pm
Only time I may not order up three is possibly at an 8-8 score 4 suited no aces. That's s really the only time that comes to mind.

Tbolt65
Edward
If you have 3 trump you can't be 4 suited. I suspect the cost of passing a 3 low trump, 3 suited, no off ace hand is high enough that I call at 8-8 and even up 9-8. I don't love it tho.
I was coming back to edit. I'm at work and I was thinking about it and realized I had left out other info. Plus the realization if my 4 suited mistake.


Anyways along with being 3 suited no aces at 8-8. 7-7 would also be a situation of concern.

Tbolt65
Edward

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:34 pm

I agree with Tbolt, 3 trump you call. Even at 8 - 8, very risky to pass if opponents have next deal.

JC with 2 other CLUBS and/or AD will beat this hand every time:

Is this a "euchre hand" when the up card is a club? How well can it be quantified?

(Card_J-H) (Card_J-D) (Card_J-S) (Card_A-S) (Card_A-H)

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marya
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Unread post by marya » Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:29 pm

Super feedback, thanks!

For the short term, I'm going to have the bots call up when they'll get 3. It sounds like it'll give better results than what they're doing now.

For the longer term, I've bookmarked this page, and I'll revisit it as I get more feedback.

Please don't expect a ton of bot reprogramming, as I cannot afford to work on the site for more than a few hours each week, as much as I would like to do more. But I'll try to get the low-hanging fruit.

Marya

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:58 pm

I can think of another situation of not picking to make 3 is when I already have three in Next and fairly certain the dealer will make Next. Not making trump lends to the opponents going alone. So this is also score related.

Another example of not picking it up is when there is an inexperienced or very conservative player at 1st seat.

One of the biggest issue with the bots on your website is when 2nd seat orders and dealer has both bowers (or Right & Ace - left falls to the Right), the bot is leading again. Thus, excessive leads of trump when it becomes your partner has trump then on trick 5 the bot has a Loser card.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:54 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:34 pm
JC with 2 other CLUBS and/or AD will beat this hand every time:

Is this a "euchre hand" when the up card is a club?

(Card_J-H) (Card_J-D) (Card_J-S) (Card_A-S) (Card_A-H)
The dealer would be turning down Clubs, so Clubs can never beat us in this spot.
irishwolf wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:34 pm
How well can it be quantified?
I don't think it's that complicated. Count off aces (or Kings if the Ace was turned down) as 1 trick, and count Right/guarded left/guarded Ace as 1 trick, and use common sense from there: 2 red bowers = 2 red tricks, 2 black bowers = 2 black tricks. Count Left + 2 in trump as two tricks. Count Right + Ace in trump as 2 tricks. This analysis doesn't have to be perfect either, just close enough.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:16 pm

Yes in that situation!

jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:32 pm

Everyone else has covered the bases, but I just wanted to add that even with the 3 lowest trump and 2 lowest suited hearts, that's not a horrible hand at all. It's probably just confirmation bias, but I feel like I pass a lot more deals than my opponents normally do, and I usually call much thinner as well. Unless we're down by quite a bit, I'm happy to have any 3 trump hand that I can call, because I frequently have to pass 2 trump hands with no aces or get ordered up when I have none of that suit in my hand.

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Dlan
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Unread post by Dlan » Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:33 am

There are ways to play a 3 trump, 2 suited hand that put the odds of success in your favor.

https://ohioeuchre.com/E_ThreeTrumpTwoSuited.php

RedDuke
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Unread post by RedDuke » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:13 am

marya wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:09 pm
Hi all,

Lend me your expertise? I am trying to find out if it's always correct to order up when it will result in you getting 3 trump.

The worst-case scenario is that you will have the 3 lowest cards of the up card suit. For example, suppose the up card is the 9 of clubs (Card_9-C) and your hand is horrible:

(Card_10-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_10-D) (Card_10-H) (Card_9-H)

Always order up because it will give you 3? Yes?

Follow-up question: is there any case where you should not order up if it will give you 3 of the up card suit? Suppose I have a very nice hand in another suit? Like this:

(Card_9-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_10-H) (Card_J-H) (Card_J-D)

Marya
I have gotten euchred with stronger hands than the first one. With that said, I'd still pick up in that situation. You're the dealer, so you have the advantage of a void (discard the 10 of diamonds) and you play last on the first trick so you can pick it up with a low trump in most cases.

The second hand, I'm still picking up unless my side is up by a ton and my opponents seem to be timid. The last thing you want is the opponents to call spades, which I guarantee they will, especially if somebody like Wes or TBolt is in first seat. Now, change that 10 of hearts to something like the Ace of Spades and I might pass.

RedDuke
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Unread post by RedDuke » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:36 am

Upcard is the (Card_J-D), you're the dealer with:

(Card_A-H) (Card_J-H) (Card_K-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_J-S)

Don't call and fight for a point when if you pass you have a strong euchre hand with a strong loner in clubs.
That's the only time I can think of to turn down the right when you have another trump.

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marya
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Unread post by marya » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:07 am

I pushed an update to the site this morning. The bots will now always order up if it gives them 3 trump. I kind of wonder if knowing they do this will weaken their position, but I think it's best for a human partner if they know what to expect.

I ran some statistics on this tactic. It turns out to be very useful when the bots are playing against each other, anyway! It turns out that prior to the change in the algorithm, the opponents were winning 76% of the time in this scenario (where the bot would turn down the up card even if it gave them 3). When the bots switched to taking the up card in that scenario, they won 82% of hands (and were euchred 18% of the time).

I'm hopeful that this will improve them as teammates.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:03 pm

marya wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:07 am
I pushed an update to the site this morning. The bots will now always order up if it gives them 3 trump. I kind of wonder if knowing they do this will weaken their position, but I think it's best for a human partner if they know what to expect.

I ran some statistics on this tactic. It turns out to be very useful when the bots are playing against each other, anyway! It turns out that prior to the change in the algorithm, the opponents were winning 76% of the time in this scenario (where the bot would turn down the up card even if it gave them 3). When the bots switched to taking the up card in that scenario, they won 82% of hands (and were euchred 18% of the time).

I'm hopeful that this will improve them as teammates.
Very good!

Here's other changes I would make:

Dealer:

1) Have the bot always call with Right + 1.

Note: I would pass Right + 1 if I have a stopper hand (all suits blocked) except I would still order in that case at 9-9. Adding this complexity into the equation is probably too ambitious. So the simple fix is always have the bot order Right + 1. As of now I'm seeing the Bots turn down Right + 1 + an off Ace in this spot which is really bad. IMO, the only time one should consider turning down Right + 1 + an off Ace is if they have a euchre hand.

2) Have the dealer always call with 2 trump + 2 off aces no matter what those 2 trump are. Again, the only time to pass this hand would be if one had a euchre hand.

The 2 Seat 1st Rd:

1) Once again, have the 2 seat always call with Right + 1. I would pass this hand only if I had a euchre hand.

2) Also have the 2 seat always call with any 3 trump.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:22 pm

I would 2nd that Marya!

It's just good euchre play if not too hard to reprogram.

The one that was glaring incorrect when the Bot's partner makes trump the Bot win the trick when trump is led and just keeps on leading trump striping his partner who call, then has a loser for the 5th trick. Or leads both bowers and has nothing left to play and gets euchred.
In euchre, one lead of trump is Generally enough when your partner makes trump unless you have all the rest of the tricks. Might be hard to program because it depends on who played what.

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