Weekly games 12/30

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Dlan
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Weekly games 12/30

Unread post by Dlan » Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:23 pm

I’d like to thank those that showed up for our games tonight. We played for about 1 ½ hours.

I do need to address one issue and it involves my behavior. I made a remark concerning a play made by another player. I was wrong in doing so.

I know I should be setting a good example and I failed to do so.

For those using Chrome and get that Download box at the bottom of the screen after any DL. There is a way to turn it off. It does involve adding an extension from the chrome web store

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/deta ... koieedkkai

That box gave me grief all night. I had to keep closing it as it covered part of the hand. NO MORE…

I’ll look through the hands and try to post some in the morning



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Unread post by irishwolf » Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:36 pm

I did it too, but it was not as criticism but advice. Not sure how it came across though. How is one going to learn if you don't say something. Waiting to later, you forget the situation. As far as for me, I don't mind comments, good or constructive. We should not be thin skinned. It's all about improving ones game. I am not sure it should be avoided. On ES we always would discuss different approaches. You discuss it then it is up the player to consider it and reject it if they want.

Irishwolf


Don, "I do need to address one issue and it involves my behavior. I make a remark concerning a play made by another player. I was wrong in doing so. Let’s all try and avoid this in the future.
I know I should be setting an example and I failed to do so."

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:53 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:36 pm
On ES we always would discuss different approaches. You discuss it then it is up the player to consider it and reject it if they want.

Irishwolf


I've been meaning to ask you Irishwolf, which moniker where you under at ES. And from which years?

Tbolt65
Tbolt76
anon5135
Johnny_fckn_hoyle
telling_u_like_it_is

gdi_learn_2_fckn_play (yeah this name was my frustration name when I played at yahoo. Hahaha.

Ed

Edward

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Dlan
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Unread post by Dlan » Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:56 pm

Many euchre players are a strong Type A, but not all. I'm not in a great position to say much here as i was part of the problem. All I can say we need to try an be helpful and the remark I made was not. I'd guess most know when they've made a bad play. For those that didn't realize, we need to find a better way.

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:59 pm

hmm I thought I posted something just now but It never showed up?

Anyways, I was wondering was there any interesting hands that came up that anyone would like to discuss?

Tbolt65
Edward

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:03 am

Dlan wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:56 pm
Many euchre players are a strong Type A, but not all. I'm not in a great position to say much here as i was part of the problem. All I can say we need to try an be helpful and the remark I made was not. I'd guess most know when they've made a bad play. For those that didn't realize, we need to find a better way.

It happens when you have a competitive nature. There are times that frustrations take over. It happens in euchre and in discussion. I mean I'm a nice guy but there were times in the past I'd lash out at times. It happens Dlan. We know you mean well.

Tbolt65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:13 am

I found this hand interesting. Richard makes a thin Next call in Hearts at 6-6 and his partner, Irishwolf presumably, did not like the call. I too would've made the same call as Richard in that spot:

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

I'm the dealer and I pass on the (Card_10-D)

1) Richard: (Card_K-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_Q-S) (Card_Q-D) (Card_K-C)
2) Dlan: (Card_Q-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_A-S) (Card_J-D) (Card_A-C)
3) IrishWolf: (Card_J-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_K-D) (Card_10-S) (Card_J-H)
4) Wes: (Card_9-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_9-S) (Card_J-S) (Card_A-H)

It's a pretty horrible spot and the argument really comes down to what is more dangerous: Passing a 4 suited hand that blocks nothing with no off aces or calling Next, trying to hit our partner with a 4 suited, 2 trump no off ace hand. With a terrible defensive holding I'm calling Next hoping to get lucky. Worst case scenario we're down 8-6 with the deal. Not ideal but not the end of the world. When we pass a hand that bad, our team is gonna lose 2 points a lot anyways, and a 4 point play from Seat 2 closes out the game, something we should worry about when we have this bad of a hand.

As far as how the hand played out, I would've led trump with Richard's configuration due to the fact that we have no voids. With a void, I'd lead a blank. Either way, this particular hand is going set no matter how one plays it. Incidentally Dlan did have a 2nd round loner in Hearts but his sweep attempt would've been stopped for 1 point.

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:22 am

Thanks Wes.


I'm probably calling Next with the same cards too myself there. At 6-8, I'm probably passing.

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Edward

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Unread post by Richardb02 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:48 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:13 am
I found this hand interesting. Richard makes a thin Next call in Hearts at 6-6 and his partner, Irishwolf presumably, did not like the call. I too would've made the same call as Richard in that spot:

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

I'm the dealer and I pass on the (Card_10-D)

1) Richard: (Card_K-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_Q-S) (Card_Q-D) (Card_K-C)
2) Dlan: (Card_Q-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_A-S) (Card_J-D) (Card_A-C)
3) IrishWolf: (Card_J-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_K-D) (Card_10-S) (Card_J-H)
4) Wes: (Card_9-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_9-S) (Card_J-S) (Card_A-H)

It's a pretty horrible spot and the argument really comes down to what is more dangerous: Passing a 4 suited hand that blocks nothing with no off aces or calling Next, trying to hit our partner with a 4 suited, 2 trump no off ace hand. With a terrible defensive holding I'm calling Next hoping to get lucky. Worst case scenario we're down 8-6 with the deal. Not ideal but not the end of the world. When we pass a hand that bad, our team is gonna lose 2 points a lot anyways, and a 4 point play from Seat 2 closes out the game, something we should worry about when we have this bad of a hand.

As far as how the hand played out, I would've led trump with Richard's configuration due to the fact that we have no voids. With a void, I'd lead a blank. Either way, this particular hand is going set no matter how one plays it. Incidentally Dlan did have a 2nd round loner in Hearts but his sweep attempt would've been stopped for 1 point.
Thanks Wes, first, for recording and sharing that replay. I had technical issues, my iPad (my fav computer) is erratic with the site and limited what I could do in the first game. I switched to my PC, but was in the learning curve and did not see how to record the hand.

Secondly thanks for accurately reflecting my thinking on ordering Next.

I appreciated “Wolf’s” passion even in the heat of the game. My first reaction is that it is caused by frustration. That’s why I remarked Edge Next in reply. Now that we can review Wolf’s hand we can see that he had all suits blocked! I would have been frustrated too!

I agree that “Wolf” from last night is also “IrishWolf” from OE. How can you expect anything but passion from Irish and Wolf? LOL. It shows in how we conflict in our posts! RFLO. I am going to have even more fun with this! But I suggest that we always show “professional” courtesy! Richardb02 is an alias for Richard the Lion Hearted! I am not as up front as Irish with my name. The Lion and the Wolf have by nature a professional respect. After all we are relatives in the animal kingdom. We are also brothers as warriors. So maybe I should change my moniker to RichardtLH or RichardLion? What do you think? :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:18 am

So here my input and strategy when the game is 6 to 6. The game is actually on the line at this juncture, and you cannot afford a euchre by allowing the game to go 6 - 8. It is too difficult to make up two points. It's your deal next even if the opponents score one point. You have nothing to block the opponents but you do not know what your partner has either.

If I had the hand eldest had, you are not making trump for yourself. You are making it for your partner and he has to win TWO tricks. You have no voids, possibly at best one trick. So if you call next, you MUST lead trump.

Of course 2nd seat would have made hearts, for one point. (Not so sure I would not have ordered diamonds on first round?)

Don't take it personal, it's only a game.

~Irishwolf

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Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:31 am

T-bolt,

I joined ES about 2007 and it dropped off when Yahoo euchre went away. We use to play on both Pogo and Yahoo. I don't remember you much. On Sunday mornings, Natty, Patricia, Todd, Kirby, Cory and sometimes the Aussie played. I played under Rhyme n Reason. These were the best of the best euchre players. Funny that Sword never did show up for these sessions. We many discussions.

~Irishwolf

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Unread post by Dlan » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:07 am

Just one last thought on my early remarks.

We now having the ability to show hands as played, the forum would be the better place to discuss, give advice and maybe even be critical of a play.

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Unread post by Richardb02 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:09 am

From the bottom up, I thought that my entire post stated that I didn’t take anything personal, whether in the game or on the forum. My humor isn’t a cover up for taking it personally. It is humor - pointing out the funny situations in real life. You have never attacked me and I have never intentionally attacked you. I call that professional courtesy. (There is a great joke that goes with that if anyone is interested.)

When I was “considering” my hand, my thought was Wolf is not going to like this but Wes would say that I had to order Next. It played out exactly that way. Let’s agree to disagree.

Let’s talk about my lead. IrishWolf, Dlan and Wes are definitely a level, and probably more above me. I am honored to play at the same table and interact on the forum with such quality euchre masters. That also masks my inexperience. I never played a hand of euchre until October 2017. My time to play euchre is limited. I have been more active this week while recovering from a hip replacement operation December 23. My card playing is lagging other areas of my play. I concede that I should have lead trump.

Ordering S2 R1 is a very interesting topic. I seem to get burned based on experience with a Singleton Trump and 2 Aces (even 2 Singleton Aces). But I would have ordered from Seat 2 as well. How sure are you whether you would order now? What guidance would you offer on how to play the hand?

Iron sharpens iron.

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Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:26 am

Richard, to your question below. I AM VERY SURE I would have assisted. It's a biddable hand, you will score a point 3/4 of the time. You pass here, dealer passes and eldest crosses suit to black, in general you probably will win one trick. But that is not Don's game. He is banking on you making NEXT. And you did.

"Ordering S2 R1 is a very interesting topic. I seem to get burned based on experience with a Singleton Trump and 2 Aces (even 2 Singleton Aces). But I would have ordered from Seat 2 as well. How sure are you whether you would order now? What guidance would you offer on how to play the hand?

~Irishwolf
"

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Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:33 am

Wes,

I may be wrong on this (hand only the AS, I did not save the hand), but one loner attempt by Dlan at 3rd seat, clubs was trump. I led a spade, he trumped it LOW too, and you played the AS as a singleton suit. Even if you have an Ace in next, it must be discarded.

~Irishwolf


`

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Unread post by Dlan » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:51 am

On two different hands, players had the cards to stop the lone, but picked the wrong card at the end.
My question is, How does one decide?

Image

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

Image

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:07 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:31 am
T-bolt,

I joined ES about 2007 and it dropped off when Yahoo euchre went away. We use to play on both Pogo and Yahoo. I don't remember you much. On Sunday mornings, Natty, Patricia, Todd, Kirby, Cory and sometimes the Aussie played. I played under Rhyme n Reason. These were the best of the best euchre players. Funny that Sword never did show up for these sessions. We many discussions.

~Irishwolf
I joined 2002. I do vaguely remember seeing the name. I'm not sure if we interacted much on posts. I know for a few years so only browsed ES and posted every now and then. Prob between 07 and 09. By 2010-2012 I was effectively done with euchre. I stopped playing until this past Feb. So The only time I really came around was to say hi and see what was up. Sword aka fastfredy is like that. He is kinda picky or querky in that way. If I recall. I don't think He like playing with random or unknowns too much. I've played with him and against him outside of ES at yahoo. Also met him a couple times at euchre tourneys that people from yahoo would put on. He didn't go to a lot of those tourneys.

Gerry, Todd, Perry, Jed, Natty, sword, Patricia , Robin, just to name a few who I can remember off the top of my head amongst many more.... between the polls, the games we played and the voluminous topics and posts daily. It really was a great yahoo group.

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Edward

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:29 pm

Dlan wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:51 am
On two different hands, players had the cards to stop the lone, but picked the wrong card at the end.
My question is, How does one decide?

Image

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

Image

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D
On my phone I can't see how it played out there. What I can tell you is one way you decide on what cards to keep is by watching what Your partner throws away. Then you can gage what to keep. It usually works. Sometimes you both do hold the same suit at the end. It happens and one of you throws away the stopper. There will be times you may have to gamble.

Tbolt65
Edward

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:41 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:29 pm
Dlan wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:51 am
On two different hands, players had the cards to stop the lone, but picked the wrong card at the end.
My question is, How does one decide?

Image

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

Image

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D
On my phone I can't see how it played out there. What I can tell you is one way you decide on what cards to keep is by watching what Your partner throws away. Then you can gage what to keep. It usually works. Sometimes you both do hold the same suit at the end. It happens and one of you throws away the stopper. There will be times you may have to gamble.

Tbolt65
Edward
Hey I was able to see the hand play out. All I had to do was turn my phone sideways.

Ok there is a clear mistake on the first hand. Wes showed an ace of diamond's. Wxsouth played the 9 of diamonds. Right here wxsouth needs to be saving his queen of diamonds. It is usually likely the maker/dealer in this spot is goin to be 2 suited. Not always but most of the time. So with that in mind. They really need to hold onto the queen of diamonds.

Tbolt65
Edward

patiencepays

Unread post by patiencepays » Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:47 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:09 am

When I was “considering” my hand, my thought was Wolf is not going to like this but Wes would say that I had to order Next. It played out exactly that way. Let’s agree to disagree.

Let’s talk about my lead. IrishWolf, Dlan and Wes are definitely a level, and probably more above me. I am honored to play at the same table and interact on the forum with such quality euchre masters. That also masks my inexperience. I never played a hand of euchre until October 2017. My time to play euchre is limited. I have been more active this week while recovering from a hip replacement operation December 23. My card playing is lagging other areas of my play. I concede that I should have lead trump.

Ordering S2 R1 is a very interesting topic. I seem to get burned based on experience with a Singleton Trump and 2 Aces (even 2 Singleton Aces). But I would have ordered from Seat 2 as well. How sure are you whether you would order now? What guidance would you offer on how to play the hand?

Iron sharpens iron.

At almost any score I would have ordered up from 2nd seat the 1st round.
This because I hold right and both my Aces are black and it's a good bet my partner will have been dealt one trump. Thin, for a 2nd seat call, but certainly wouldn't have been as thin as the next call that was made here. That call I wouldn't have made at most scores, but I look to always lead trump whether it's from my next call or if it was my partner in 3rd who has made trump, regardless of the strength of my hand. Calling next when "calling for my partner", almost always works to your advantage when you lead trump to give your partner an early chance to control the line of play while maybe taking 2 trump out of your opponents hands. After all, you made trump on a prayer and if your savior is going to be your partner don't leave him sitting in the bush while the opps has trump ammunition to ambush with their trump.
We must remember leading trump strengthens his aces if he has any, and he's likely going to need to have a good one to score the point. "Next for my partner", pray, then get ready to let out a sigh or the dreaded groan.

~Patiencepays~
(no statistics supplied here to support my experiences)

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:50 pm

On hand 2. Another mistake by wisouth.

They have a singleton ace. 99% of the time you are going to save it to play at the end for a chance at a stopper. In this case on the second to last trick, wisouth partner is signaling to him on the second to last trick he has diamonds covered. Unless you get info from the maker that he potentially is 2 suited. NEVER throw away an ace at the end there.


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Edward

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:11 pm

Actually Don, none of those should have been successful loners. And I have to admit I was on the losing side of both. On the first one, my partner is the Bot. I have one potential stopper the AH. I lead my singleton KD, you had the AD, bot plays the 10D. Note also, Bot discards a trump, but has no void regardless, so okay. Bot has two stoppers, after the first trick - QD & AS. Ironically, the Bot tosses his AS on trick 2. Nothing but Stupid. Critical or not, just a Fact. On trick 3 I play 10S as I have no stoppers in spades. This then narrows it down for my pard, the only stopper you have left is the QD. He tosses (QD) it on trick 4 and saves the QH. The QD was by far the card for the Bot to save. He does not know conventions as the only Stopper for his partner to have is Hearts.

The Bot is not programmed correctly for stopping a loner. Still it would have come down had he not tossed the AS to two stoppers. But in this situation, it was clear to hold the QD, not the QH. It's not rocket science.

I will do a separate one for the other loner.

~Irishwolf

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Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:47 pm

On the next loner attempt that was successful. This one was my errant playing by myself assisted by Wes. You did the loner. 9C upcard, QH discarded, clubs is trump. The odds of him only having 9C, maker has 3, I have one is 50% he has another trump. Pretty goods odds, so you lead the spade.

There are actually two Conventions I have worked out that my regular partners know and are use to. These will be discussed when the hand is over.

I am in 2nd seat, and use to the convention of I Must lead next to a loner. Even though I am giving up the elimination of one of my potential stoppers. It is still the best odds of a stopper. So I lead a nine of spades. You trump with the 10C but had he had the KC you are stopped. You got lucky there when you know the convention. He saved his only spade, AS, because he only has the 9C. Enough said there.

The potential stoppers I have are the AH, KD 10D and Wes has AD with QD & 9D. The only two suits that the Maker may have. How do we sort our hands to compliment each other and not save the save suit? I actually have reservations about giving up a Convention but will do it anyway, this time. It goes like this, if you have as your only stopper three of one suit, nothing else. You don't start sloughing the 9D first. You go in REVERSE order, QD, 9D save the AD (or could be KD in other situations). So what this did, as I was use to this order as a convention (assumed he knew). Should I have known that Wes may not known this?

So on trick trick 4 I see he sloughs QD and I end up being forced, KD or AH? I overlooked the fact that only the AD and JD were left and no way could my KD catch the AD but could the JD, he probably did not know this convention (Not many do.). I actually tossed it, reluctantly. Not many do. There were more hearts left than diamonds, bad move by me. That crushed me, I don't like giving up loners.

I have to remember, conventions developed are not always known in general.

~Irishwolf

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:51 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:33 am
Wes,

I may be wrong on this (hand only the AS, I did not save the hand), but one loner attempt by Dlan at 3rd seat, clubs was trump. I led a spade, he trumped it LOW too, and you played the AS as a singleton suit. Even if you have an Ace in next, it must be discarded.

~Irishwolf
I remember this hand well. You are NOT wrong. I kept the AS instead of voiding myself in Next. However my situation was the one exception to the rule! The only trump I had was the upcard 9C. This means I can never overtrump the maker. Therefore now I should keep the AS instead of discarding it. It's funny, when dlan went alone I almost got rid of the AS without thinking. I had my cursor on the AS and then I was like "wtf are you doing, all you have is the 9C!" It was a very amusing moment for me.

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:02 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:47 pm
On the next loner attempt that was successful. This one was my errant playing by myself assisted by Wes. You did the loner. 9C upcard, QH discarded, clubs is trump. The odds of him only having 9C, maker has 3, I have one is 50% he has another trump. Pretty goods odds, so you lead the spade.

There are actually two Conventions I have worked out that my regular partners know and are use to. These will be discussed when the hand is over.

I am in 2nd seat, and use to the convention of I Must lead next to a loner. Even though I am giving up the elimination of one of my potential stoppers. It is still the best odds of a stopper. So I lead a nine of spades. You trump with the 10C but had he had the KC you are stopped. You got lucky there when you know the convention. He saved his only spade, AS, because he only has the 9C. Enough said there.

The potential stoppers I have are the AH, KD 10D and Wes has AD with QD & 9D. The only two suits that the Maker may have. How do we sort our hands to compliment each other and not save the save suit? I actually have reservations about giving up a Convention but will do it anyway, this time. It goes like this, if you have as your only stopper three of one suit, nothing else. You don't start sloughing the 9D first. You go in REVERSE order, QD, 9D save the AD (or could be KD in other situations). So what this did, as I was use to this order as a convention (assumed he knew). Should I have known that Wes may not known this?

So on trick trick 4 I see he sloughs QD and I end up being forced, KD or AH? I overlooked the fact that only the AD and JD were left and no way could my KD catch the AD but could the JD, he probably did not know this convention (Not many do.). I actually tossed it, reluctantly. Not many do. There were more hearts left than diamonds, bad move by me. That crushed me, I don't like giving up loners.

I have to remember, conventions developed are not always known in general.

~Irishwolf
Yeah I never heard of the convention before. I think it's a pretty awesome convention. And I will use it now. However, in that spot you still have to go with the general convention until you have direct evidence your P knows your convention. And the general convention is: once I play a diamond on the 4th trick you count on me to be covering diamonds.

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Unread post by Dlan » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:37 pm

Quick FYI

Changing the D/L 'd code from WOCG and you can give the seat any name you want.
For example, say the seats name was "We-North" changing 'We' to 'xx' gives the seat a name of xx-North

patiencepays

Unread post by patiencepays » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:47 pm

Dlan wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:51 am
On two different hands, players had the cards to stop the lone, but picked the wrong card at the end.
My question is, How does one decide?

This is the second hand from the original post by Dlan

Image

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D
IMO Because a loner attempt from 3rd seat, doesn't afford the player to void before play and because it's unusual for one player to have all black or all red cards. I wouldn't lead next to this call. I would lead a red card. As well my decision of what to lead rest on the fact that I have one red ACE and a King high doubleton in the other red suit. Ordinarily I never lead an Ace to a opposition loner call unless I have 2, but holding Ah and the Kd doubleton I see it as 2 aces in my hand. For me it really comes down to being either an Ah lead or it's from the Kd double (high or low), a choice which is a crapshoot for me. I'll lead the ace through the maker in this situation and save the doubleton. I could win the trick or my p could over trump if he's void in hearts.

~Patiencepays~

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Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:57 pm

PATIENCE,

So what is your proof this is a wrong move? So we will DEFINITELY DISAGREE! But play it as you will.

" I wouldn't lead next to this call."

~Irishwolf

patiencepays

Unread post by patiencepays » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:15 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:57 pm
PATIENCE,

So what is your proof this is a wrong move? So we will DEFINITELY DISAGREE! But play it as you will.

" I wouldn't lead next to this call."

~Irishwolf
Irish,
Settle down! As well as beginning my comment with IMO, I nowhere stated leading next is a wrong move. I clearly only gave my reasons why I would lead a red suit. My line of play works well for me. I don't like to use that unproven convention that you only imply works best. Nobody needs proof when providing an opinion. Even you I'd let off the hook for that.

I'd appreciate if you could actually provide proof your conventions are best. Simply explaining how you think they work and your expected outcomes from them is CERTAINLY NOT PROOF! Perhaps with some actual proof from you instead of all conjecture and supposition, you might convince me the better road is with that convention.

LOL How many players did you poll that that permits you to shout "we will DEFINiTELY DISAGREE" Be sure to show proof of your tally.

Happy to be ~patiencepays~

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:37 pm

patiencepays wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:15 pm
My line of play works well for me. I don't like to use that unproven convention that you only imply works best. Nobody needs proof when providing an opinion. Even you I'd let off the hook for that.

I'd appreciate if you could actually provide proof your conventions are best. Simply explaining how you think they work and your expected outcomes from them is CERTAINLY NOT PROOF! Perhaps with some actual proof from you instead of all conjecture and supposition, you might convince me the better road is with that convention.
If you want hard data you're not gonna get it until somebody puts this to the test with that mythical euchre simulator. So we'll have to settle for a kind've logical proof instead.

When the 3rd Seat goes alone in the first round it is important to recognize that the maker is in a squeeze on the first lead caught between the 2 seat and the dealer. I.E. the maker doesn't close the action, and the dealer gets to create a void, so the maker can easily get overtrumped. It is critical for the defending team to take advantage of this fact. As the cliche goes, "avoid strength, attack weakness". The weakness of any 3rd Seat loner is on that first lead when they are caught in that squeeze. The best way to attack this weakness is for the 2 Seat to find the dealer's void. In the long run, the dealer's best chance to create a void will be in the Next suit given that that's the short suit. Therefore the 2 seat should lead Next, EVEN IF all he has is a singleton Next Ace, and knowing this is what Seat 2 should do, the Dealer should always try to create a void in Next. EVEN IF the dealer has a singleton Next Ace, he should discard it (except for when all he has is the 9 of trump and thus can't overtrump the maker). No other strategy is better at attacking the inherent weakness and thus blowing up 1st rd, 3rd seat loners. It makes it where the 3rd seat has to have close to a laydown to sweep. This is why all highly skilled players lead Next from the 2 seat in that spot, and discard Next from the dealer spot if they can.

irishwolf
Posts: 700
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:19 pm

Patience,

Yes, you are pissing me off with your statement: I ask you for some proof, NONE!

I'd appreciate if you could actually provide proof your conventions are best. Simply explaining how you think they work and your expected outcomes from them is CERTAINLY NOT PROOF! Perhaps with some actual proof from you instead of all conjecture and supposition, you might convince me the better road is with that convention."

"LOL How many players did you poll that that permits you to shout "we will DEFINiTELY DISAGREE" Be sure to show proof of your tally."

Fact is I don't have to Poll anyone? Guys like you just want someone else to do all your work for you.

Facts are, 2nd seat has one in Next + Left leaves 4 unknown to the Next suit. There will be just One at the Dealer 47.4% or None at 23.4% = 70% the dealer can be void in Next. Is that alone not enough to prove that leading next is the best. For trump if 2nd seat has none then on the average there will be 3 unknown trumps and dealer has at least One + upcard 47% or more 65% of the time.

So you give me some odds that anything else gives better odds?

So f___k off! Do your own analysis.

~Irishwolf

patiencepays

Unread post by patiencepays » Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:02 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:37 pm
patiencepays wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:15 pm
My line of play works well for me. I don't like to use that unproven convention that you only imply works best. Nobody needs proof when providing an opinion. Even you I'd let off the hook for that.

I'd appreciate if you could actually provide proof your conventions are best. Simply explaining how you think they work and your expected outcomes from them is CERTAINLY NOT PROOF! Perhaps with some actual proof from you instead of all conjecture and supposition, you might convince me the better road is with that convention.
If you want hard data you're not gonna get it until somebody puts this to the test

Irishwolf: I guess this includes the proof I demand from you too.

with that mythical euchre simulator. So we'll have to settle for akind've logical proof instead.

Wes: It's reasonable to accept we have both offered a logical proof, but I would label them both as logical assumption. Find that euchre probability calculator.


When the 3rd Seat goes alone in the first round it is important to recognize that the maker is in a squeeze on the first lead caught between the 2 seat and the dealer. I.E. the maker doesn't close the action, and the dealer gets to create a void, so the maker can easily get overtrumped. It is critical for the defending team to take advantage of this fact. As the cliche goes, "avoid strength, attack weakness". The weakness of any 3rd Seat loner is on that first lead when they are caught in that squeeze. The best way to attack this weakness is for the 2 Seat to find the dealer's void. In the long run, the dealer's best chance to create a void will be in the Next suit given that that's the short suit. Therefore the 2 seat should lead Next, EVEN IF all he has is a singleton Next Ace, and knowing this is what Seat 2 should do, the Dealer should always try to create a void in Next. EVEN IF the dealer has a singleton Next Ace, he should discard it (except for when all he has is the 9 of trump and thus can't overtrump the maker). No other strategy is better at attacking the inherent weakness and thus blowing up 1st rd, 3rd seat loners. It makes it where the 3rd seat has to have close to a laydown to sweep. This is why all highly skilled players lead Next from the 2 seat in that spot, and discard Next from the dealer spot if they can.
Wes: What is the thresh hold for me to call myself a highly skilled player. What win % does it take for me to be considered an all that and a bag of chips. I don't suspect this convention works as intended frequently when ones partnered with one of those 80% of players who are par, slightly above par or below par. I think any skilled player when playing against the majority of the scope of players (80%) and even many better than that, needs to adjust to the fact that most do not play all the conventions that might be known to you. If they don't adjust then that convention player won't be looking as well in the win column. I sure hope you're not trying to relate to me a highly skilled player will stubbornly always play this convention.

(Please don't think I gave no thought to your explanation.)

Perhaps knowing what the probability that 3rd seat has all black cards, in the in question, will help sway my opinion. Anyone know? Calculating it is not in my volcabulary. lol

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:58 pm

patiencepays wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:02 pm
.I don't suspect this convention works as intended frequently when ones partnered with one of those 80% of players who are par, slightly above par or below par. I think any skilled player when playing against the majority of the scope of players (80%) and even many better than that, needs to adjust to the fact that most do not play all the conventions that might be known to you. If they don't adjust then that convention player won't be looking as well in the win column. I sure hope you're not trying to relate to me a highly skilled player will stubbornly always play this convention.
How one should play this spot with an amateur partner as the dealer is an entirely different discussion. The cynic in me suspects you shifted the goalpost here becuz you're more interested in winning arguments online than getting better, but there's another part of me, the more naive part perhaps that still believes in you, and thus I will leave in the possibility that your intentions were more noble.

We're talking about a hand here where me and Irishwolf were partners. The main point here is the probability that the dealer already has a void in Next or can create a void in Next is significantly higher than any other suit. Becuz of this, the correct strategy for Seat 2 is to always lead Next. Becuz the dealer knows Seat 2 knows this (both partners are highly skilled), the dealer should always void himself in Next even if he has a singleton Next Ace (outside of the rare exception when all he has is the 9 of trump).

So to drive this home, if you're in the 2 seat and and I am your partner or Edward, or Irishwolf, or Dlan, etc, and you have the Next suit and don't lead it you have made a clear unequivocal mistake.

patiencepays

Unread post by patiencepays » Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:03 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:19 pm
Patience,

Yes, you are pissing me off with your statement: I ask you for some proof, NONE!

I'd appreciate if you could actually provide proof your conventions are best. Simply explaining how you think they work and your expected outcomes from them is CERTAINLY NOT PROOF! Perhaps with some actual proof from you instead of all conjecture and supposition, you might convince me the better road is with that convention."

"LOL How many players did you poll that permits you to shout "we will DEFINiTELY DISAGREE" Be sure to show proof of your tally."

Fact is I don't have to Poll anyone? Guys like you just want someone else to do all your work for you.

Irishwolf: No, fact is, no proof of tally = an egregious use of the word we. You respectfully don't speak for others unless requested..

Facts are, 2nd seat has one in Next + Left leaves 4 unknown to the Next suit. There will be just One at the Dealer 47.4% or None at 23.4% = 70% the dealer can be void in Next. Is that alone not enough to prove that leading next is the best. For trump if 2nd seat has none then on the average there will be 3 unknown trumps and dealer has at least One + upcard 47% or more 65% of the time.

70% WTF! the dealer can only have one or none, not both at the same time. 47.4 X 23.4 = 35.4% net likelihood dealer has the next suit. duh! I seriously suspect the probability that the maker has all black is higher than that, and if true, I lead one of my red stoppers and save the other for later.


So you give me some odds that anything else gives better odds?

Can I also mislead?

So f___k off! Do your own analysis.

If I piss you off, ignore my posts. Doing so, could sometime prevent you from going in to asshole mode.

35.4% void in next Vs % 3rd is void in red = ? (and 2nd seat sitting with 2 red suit stoppers)




~Irishwolf

patiencepays

Unread post by patiencepays » Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:59 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:58 pm
patiencepays wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:02 pm
.I don't suspect this convention works as intended frequently when ones partnered with one of those 80% of players who are par, slightly above par or below par. I think any skilled player when playing against the majority of the scope of players (80%) and even many better than that, needs to adjust to the fact that most do not play all the conventions that might be known to you. If they don't adjust then that convention player won't be looking as well in the win column. I sure hope you're not trying to relate to me a highly skilled player will stubbornly always play this convention.
How one should play this spot with an amateur partner as the dealer is an entirely different discussion. The cynic in me suspects you shifted the goalpost here becuz you're more interested in winning arguments online than getting better, but there's another part of me, the more naive part perhaps that still believes in you, and thus I will leave in the possibility that your intentions were more noble.

We're talking about a hand here where me and Irishwolf were partners. The main point here is the probability that the dealer already has a void in Next or can create a void in Next is significantly higher than any other suit. Becuz of this, the correct strategy for Seat 2 is to always lead Next. Becuz the dealer knows Seat 2 knows this (both partners are highly skilled), the dealer should always void himself in Next even if he has a singleton Next Ace (outside of the rare exception when all he has is the 9 of trump).

So to drive this home, if you're in the 2 seat and and I am your partner or Edward, or Irishwolf, or Dlan, etc, and you have the Next suit and don't lead it you have made a clear unequivocal mistake.
Wes: The situation posed by the author Dlan was - On two different hands, players had the cards to stop the lone, but picked the wrong card at the end. My question is, How does one decide?

And nobody during the discussion quantified any of their replies were accounting for any designates playing together".

Re: the suggestion of shifting goal posts. I reitterate, I simply submitted what I would do in 2nd seat. And, without any replies bringing up other boundaries, their proposals were to always use the convention indicating it brings greater success. Since there is limited widespread use of this convention it's reasonable to foresee it has limited use. Unless one absolutely knows his partner abides by that convention, IMO using it with a random partner can be hazardous and costly. Until there's good proof in the pudding, I won't admit the convention is a best move anytime.

Tbolt65
Posts: 487
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:49 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:58 pm
patiencepays wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:02 pm
.I don't suspect this convention works as intended frequently when ones partnered with one of those 80% of players who are par, slightly above par or below par. I think any skilled player when playing against the majority of the scope of players (80%) and even many better than that, needs to adjust to the fact that most do not play all the conventions that might be known to you. If they don't adjust then that convention player won't be looking as well in the win column. I sure hope you're not trying to relate to me a highly skilled player will stubbornly always play this convention.
How one should play this spot with an amateur partner as the dealer is an entirely different discussion.

We're talking about a hand here where me and Irishwolf were partners. The main point here is the probability that the dealer already has a void in Next or can create a void in Next is significantly higher than any other suit. Becuz of this, the correct strategy for Seat 2 is to always lead Next. Becuz the dealer knows Seat 2 knows this (both partners are highly skilled), the dealer should always void himself in Next even if he has a singleton Next Ace (outside of the rare exception when all he has is the 9 of trump).

So to drive this home, if you're in the 2 seat and and I am your partner or Edward, or Irishwolf, or Dlan, etc, and you have the Next suit and don't lead it you have made a clear unequivocal mistake.
I don't always lead next. The problem here is getting to a void for dealer first. The bigger issue is 3rd seat. What do they have? Are they likely to have next as an off suit? For people who are less likely to bag. The answer is yes. They will or can have next. For those who bag, it is less likely they will have next. Now with your partner getting rid of next, you have to consider what is the likelihood they can over trump, 3rd seats trump? If next was lead? Now with that said. If your up against a third seat loner that doesnt bags you would want to lead that next suit. They are likely to have it. For the 3rd seat loners if ppl who bags, then you should be trying to find their loser suit so your partner can Trump in with any size Trump and be able to secure the stopper. It also comes down to the 3rd seat maker too. Are they going to Trump low enough to be over trumped? Or will they Trump higher than the ordered card to dealer? Factors yet to still consider.



For "me". This is exactly what I'm doing. I am seeing what's in my hand card wise. Then I'm visualizing the card distribution in my opponents hand and my partners, also the ordered card as well. I am also considering what type of player they are and their likely holdings based on that. That's when the visualization really comes in. I see if I have any aces, singleton suits, doubleton suits or tripletons. I then carefully think about all of the above then make my decision and play.

So do I use the always lead the next suit convention? Well as I always said in euchre science. " It always depends on the situation".

Tbolt65
Edward

Tbolt65
Posts: 487
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:56 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:29 pm
Dlan wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:51 am
On two different hands, players had the cards to stop the lone, but picked the wrong card at the end.
My question is, How does one decide?

Image

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

Image

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D
On my phone I can't see how it played out there.

What I can tell you is one way you decide on what cards to keep is by watching what Your partner throws away. Then you can gage what to keep. It usually works. Sometimes you both do hold the same suit at the end. It happens and one of you throws away the stopper. There will be times you may have to gamble.

Tbolt65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:06 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:49 pm
I don't always lead next.
That's a cool story bro but if I'm your partner against a 3rd seat loner you better always lead next if you have it.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:15 pm

patiencepays wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:59 pm
Until there's good proof in the pudding, I won't admit the convention is a best move anytime.
The convention is the best move pretty much by definition as it is already implied that both parties know what's going on. If one party doesn't then the convention effectively doesn't exist. BTW you don't have to admit anything. Just follow the math, and if both parties are following the math then that will naturally lead them to the convention. Again, in the long run the dealer has a higher probability of being of being void in Next than any other suit, therefore Seat 2 must lead Next. Since the dealer knows Seat 2 knows this, the dealer must discard next if he can.

Tbolt65
Posts: 487
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:39 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:06 pm
Tbolt65 wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:49 pm
I don't always lead next.
That's a cool story bro but if I'm your partner against a 3rd seat loner you better always lead next if you have it.
Information is information. Gotta play to what your partner is capable of or is expecting. That's what euchre is all about, adapting to your partner, to the situation, to the cards....ect. ☺😊😉


Tbolt65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:56 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:39 pm
Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:06 pm
Tbolt65 wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:49 pm
I don't always lead next.
That's a cool story bro but if I'm your partner against a 3rd seat loner you better always lead next if you have it.
Information is information. Gotta play to what your partner is capable of or is expecting. That's what euchre is all about, adapting to your partner, to the situation, to the cards....ect. ☺😊😉


Tbolt65
Edward
I can't argue with that!

patiencepays

Unread post by patiencepays » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:58 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:15 pm
patiencepays wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:59 pm
Until there's good proof in the pudding, I won't admit the convention is a best move anytime.
The convention is the best move pretty much by definition as it is already implied that both parties know what's going on. If one party doesn't then the convention effectively doesn't exist. BTW you don't have to admit anything. Just follow the math, and if both parties are following the math then that will naturally lead them to the convention. Again, in the long run the dealer has a higher probability of being of being void in Next than any other suit, therefore Seat 2 must lead Next. Since the dealer knows Seat 2 knows this, the dealer must discard next if he can.
Wes:
ho hum, sitting here on NEW YEARS EVE discussing euchre. Well anyway, because both parties in the team know what's going on between them doesn't justify in the least that their convention is the best of plays. Unless factually proven as the best line of play following a convention is only practicing a theory with conviction.

Follow the math? That's true. You say the dealer has a higher probability of being void in next. Where's the math? Simply comparing to his other suits and deciding on a convention seems to be riding on foolish. Where's your numbers that might show it a lower a lower probability that the maker will not have a red suit here. The lead has 2 stopper suits. The math used to form this convention has ignored those facts.

You say follow the math? The math involved has to show a comparative to be of real value. Without a conclusion drawn from a logical comparative the best hasn't been proven.

I expressed an opinion, your'e expressing a strong conviction denouncing me, It's fair to assume you have the math.

And don't try to tell me there's a 70 % chance the dealer will be void of next, and not compare it to the makers hand.

I bid you, Adieu. 11:58 pm HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYONE!

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:03 am

patiencepays wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:58 pm
Follow the math? That's true. You say the dealer has a higher probability of being void in next. Where's the math?
In the long run the dealer has the chance to most likely be void in Next becuz there are only 5 cards in the Next suit vs 6 cards in the green suits. Becuz of this fact, Seat 2 should lead Next. Since the dealer knows Seat 2 knows this, the dealer should discard Next as aggressively as possible. This is an example of legal communication/cooperation that makes 3rd Seat loners very hard to complete if you're up against two skilled players.
patiencepays wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:58 pm
Simply comparing to his other suits and deciding on a convention seems to be riding on foolish.

Nah, it's called creating a game plan to attack 3rd seat loners at their weakest point. Euchre is a team game. The strategy of the Seat 2 always leading a suit (when he can) and the dealer always trying to void himself in that same suit to fully take advantage of the fact that the 3rd seat starts out in a squeeze is very effective. The reason most teams don't play this way is becuz they have never thought about this idea. Most people don't take euchre that seriously. But when teams do learn of this idea, they immediately adopt this strategy becuz most people are rational and understand the power of cooperation and want to harness that power as much as they can. And of course the next logical step is realizing that on average the dealer will have the easiest time voiding himself in the Next suit, so a team would naturally build their cooperation strategy around that suit.
patiencepays wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:58 pm
Where's your numbers that might show it a lower a lower probability that the maker will not have a red suit here. The lead has 2 stopper suits. The math used to form this convention has ignored those facts.
What the Maker specifically has is not relevant. What matters is finding our partner's void. That's what's most important here given that the Maker starts out in a squeeze on the first lead. If the maker gets by the first lead, then it's up to you and your partner to communicate well through your card laying to try to make sure you guys aren't covering the same suit on the last trick.

This is the last post I'm gonna make on this subject with you as I am now convinced you are not someone I should take seriously. I'm not sure what your agenda is but I don't think it's improving your euchre game.

Here's a link on this subject for those who are genuinely interested in getting better:

https://ohioeuchre.com/E_loneDef-example2.php

Richardb02
Posts: 581
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Unread post by Richardb02 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:21 pm

Happy New Year 2020 everyone. My prophecy for 2020:

For those that look ahead, and move forward, there will be plenty in twenty twenty.

Before I put my foot in my mouth, let me say that I appreciate everyone that posts and even those that read but don’t post.

It is like a big dysfunctional family. I have experience with my own big, dysfunctional and very diverse family! Please bear with my dysfunctional observations. There will be debates, inevitably personal attacks will happen or at least be perceived, personal attacks cause fights, fights can be cathartic and lead to healing if addressed properly, but destructive if left unchecked.

I propose a mini-welcome to the OE Welcome:
1. OE welcomes players of all skill levels (new, experienced, advanced) to learn more about enjoying and winning at the game of Euchre. Please note, first, it is a game to be enjoyed. Secondly, we attract players who want to excel at the intricacies of winning Euchre.
2. Our core Euchre principles are reflected in the Lessons and Tips Sections of the Ohio Euchre website. You can test your knowledge with our Quiz. You will enjoy our website and forum much more as you master the “Quiz.” It is challenging and highly educational.
3. Our Forum is intended to be a friendly and Euchre-focused discussion of improving the enjoyment and knowledge of winning at Euchre. Our goal is to encourage communication among the players. That can be a challenge because of the diversity of skill levels, personalities and language barriers. Please be courteous to every poster, after all Euchre is, first and always, a game to be enjoyed, at any skill level.
4. Join us Monday nights 9 PM ET, [WoCG link] for an online game or games.

Richardb02
Posts: 581
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Unread post by Richardb02 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:46 pm

Wes, presented a detailed and robust review for the convention of S2 Leading Next and S4 (Dealer) discarding Next when playing against a S3 Loner.

He also presented this link in OE:

https://ohioeuchre.com/E_loneDef-example2.php
[/quote]

Here is the (much simpler) section on OE that really drove the point home to me. Scroll down to Stopping a 3rd Seat Lone:

https://ohioeuchre.com/E_loneDef.php

Don Lund, the creator of OE, crisply explains why the convention works and how to play the convention. I quickly saw that the probabilities were as good as they can get, easily understood the rules for the partners and zero possibility of miscommunication between the partners. My Pareto Principle based analysis is, probabilities cover 80% of the possible outcomes, rules and excellent communication covers 80% of the remaining 20%, so 96% of the time we will have our best opportunity to stop the Loner.

We get to enjoy the participation of players at a higher level. Tbolt is the example on this thread. He Is able to understand the intricacies of identifying the 4% of hands that the convention does not address. His efforts, in that rarefied 4% air, is focused on his understanding of player tendencies. I appreciate that type of intensity. I appreciate that he was willing to discuss player tendencies on a recent thread with me. I am just not at that level. I will probably never get there because I have too many other priorities in my life. That includes a 1 year old granddaughter and another on the way in June. So I especially appreciate Tbolt and other posters who help me to enjoy the great game of Euchre.

patiencepays

Unread post by patiencepays » Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:44 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:03 am
patiencepays wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:58 pm
Follow the math? That's true. You say the dealer has a higher probability of being void in next. Where's the math?
In the long run the dealer has the chance to most likely be void in Next becuz there are only 5 cards in the Next suit vs 6 cards in the green suits. Becuz of this fact, Seat 2 should lead Next. Since the dealer knows Seat 2 knows this, the dealer should discard Next as aggressively as possible. This is an example of legal communication/cooperation that makes 3rd Seat loners very hard to complete if you're up against two skilled players.
patiencepays wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:58 pm
Simply comparing to his other suits and deciding on a convention seems to be riding on foolish.

Nah, it's called creating a game plan to attack 3rd seat loners at their weakest point. Euchre is a team game. The strategy of the Seat 2 always leading a suit (when he can) and the dealer always trying to void himself in that same suit to fully take advantage of the fact that the 3rd seat starts out in a squeeze is very effective. The reason most teams don't play this way is becuz they have never thought about this idea. Most people don't take euchre that seriously. But when teams do learn of this idea, they immediately adopt this strategy becuz most people are rational and understand the power of cooperation and want to harness that power as much as they can.


Wes: lol What a ridiculous self serving argument! Mostly highly argumentative conjecture and blah blah blah. You can preach all you want but your conviction and multiple replies with only a repeated "do it my way" "believe me" "i'm the self appoint expert" attitude, sickly fails to show readers any reasonable amount of proof that your convention is the best strategy for the situation in question.

I fully understand the conventions theory. Lacking actual evidence to the contrary it remains my opinion though, that with the hand in question that the convention will vastly underperform the red lead. Nobody is suggesting that among players who use this convention that the dealer shouldn't prepare for it. I'll tell you! "it's a team game" "co-operation helps" alright. I don't need you to spell that out. That doesn't mean one partner, the one with the lead, should sacrifice the potential of his opportune cards (red Ace + red K,9) for what appears a lesser shot in the dark.

Really have you done the numbers as they relate to this particular 2nd seat holding? I sincerely doubt it.
BTW: At the OE link you provided at the bottom of your post there is not one iota of proof that the hand being discussed here should not be played differently than the staged weak hands in the column
.

And of course the next logical step is realizing that on average the dealer will have the easiest time voiding himself in the Next suit, so a team would naturally build their cooperation strategy around that suit.

Your preaching is repeating itself. Let's get to the PROOF ...PROOF, if you have ANY.

patiencepays wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:58 pm
Where's your numbers that might show it a lower a lower probability that the maker will not have a red suit here. The lead has 2 stopper suits. The math used to form this convention has ignored those facts.


Since you stubbornly refuse to reply to this, I won't repeat the request at this time.


What the Maker specifically has is not relevant. What matters is finding our partner's void.

Lol, When the maker is involved in the play his collection is ALWAYS RELEVANT. And you label yourself "expert"?

That's what's most important here given that the Maker starts out in a squeeze on the first lead. If the maker gets by the first lead, then it's up to you and your partner to communicate well through your card laying to try to make sure you guys aren't covering the same suit on the last trick.

This is the last post I'm gonna make on this subject with you as I am now convinced you are not someone I should take seriously. I'm not sure what your agenda is but I don't think it's improving your euchre game.

You frustrated yourself fella by refusing to offer more than simply repeated conjecture and your preferred line of play with this hand while shamefully attempting to denounce my opinion as unworthy of consideration. You have never heard of "it all depends". If you're going to preach your word as euchre gospel be prepared to back it up. Now, In an act of co-operativeness I'll follow your lead and retreat to my corner before you start holding your breath in yours. Later~~


~Patiencepays~

irishwolf
Posts: 700
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:01 pm

To T-bolt,
So Ed, you say you don't always lead Next. And go on to say you look at your hand. So stop the rhetoric and provide some Facts and/or hand (other than those in which you do Not have next to lead) where you would lead something else that has a better chance of a stopper? You must know of some or is it just verbiage? So you know this topic was also well discussed on ES. So are you forgetting or ignoring it and the conclusions drawn? Is this one you and Natty disagreed on? DEPENDS ON WHAT, ASSUMING YOUR PARTNER KNOWS THE CONVENTION!


Ball is in your court to add something meaningful.


~Irishwolf

Ed said, "I don't always lead next. The problem here is getting to a void for dealer first. The bigger issue is 3rd seat. What do they have? Are they likely to have next as an off suit? For people who are less likely to bag. The answer is yes. They will or can have next. For those who bag, it is less likely they will have next. Now with your partner getting rid of next, you have to consider what is the likelihood they can over trump, 3rd seats trump? If next was lead? Now with that said. If your up against a third seat loner that doesnt bags you would want to lead that next suit. They are likely to have it. For the 3rd seat loners if ppl who bags, then you should be trying to find their loser suit so your partner can Trump in with any size Trump and be able to secure the stopper. It also comes down to the 3rd seat maker too. Are they going to Trump low enough to be over trumped? Or will they Trump higher than the ordered card to dealer? Factors yet to still consider.

For "me". This is exactly what I'm doing. I am seeing what's in my hand card wise. Then I'm visualizing the card distribution in my opponents hand and my partners, also the ordered card as well. I am also considering what type of player they are and their likely holdings based on that. That's when the visualization really comes in. I see if I have any aces, singleton suits, doubleton suits or tripletons. I then carefully think about all of the above then make my decision and play.

So do I use the always lead the next suit convention? Well as I always said in euchre science. " It always depends on the situation". "


Tbolt65
Edward
DEPENDS ON WHAT, ASSUMING YOUR PARTNER KNOWS THE CONVENTION!

Tbolt65
Posts: 487
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Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:47 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:01 pm
To T-bolt,
So Ed, you say you don't always lead Next. And go on to say you look at your hand. So stop the rhetoric and provide some Facts and/or hand (other than those in which you do Not have next to lead) where you would lead something else that has a better chance of a stopper? You must know of some or is it just verbiage? So you know this topic was also well discussed on ES. So are you forgetting or ignoring it and the conclusions drawn? Is this one you and Natty disagreed on? DEPENDS ON WHAT, ASSUMING YOUR PARTNER KNOWS THE CONVENTION!


Ball is in your court to add something meaningful.


~Irishwolf

Ed said, "I don't always lead next. The problem here is getting to a void for dealer first. The bigger issue is 3rd seat. What do they have? Are they likely to have next as an off suit? For people who are less likely to bag. The answer is yes. They will or can have next. For those who bag, it is less likely they will have next. Now with your partner getting rid of next, you have to consider what is the likelihood they can over trump, 3rd seats trump? If next was lead? Now with that said. If your up against a third seat loner that doesnt bags you would want to lead that next suit. They are likely to have it. For the 3rd seat loners if ppl who bags, then you should be trying to find their loser suit so your partner can Trump in with any size Trump and be able to secure the stopper. It also comes down to the 3rd seat maker too. Are they going to Trump low enough to be over trumped? Or will they Trump higher than the ordered card to dealer? Factors yet to still consider.

For "me". This is exactly what I'm doing. I am seeing what's in my hand card wise. Then I'm visualizing the card distribution in my opponents hand and my partners, also the ordered card as well. I am also considering what type of player they are and their likely holdings based on that. That's when the visualization really comes in. I see if I have any aces, singleton suits, doubleton suits or tripletons. I then carefully think about all of the above then make my decision and play.

So do I use the always lead the next suit convention? Well as I always said in euchre science. " It always depends on the situation". "


Tbolt65
Edward
DEPENDS ON WHAT, ASSUMING YOUR PARTNER KNOWS THE CONVENTION!

Perhaps you are not understanding or grasping my two comments/paragraphs. To clarify. My first paragraph is when using the convention of leading next. As we all know are not absolutes. If they where. There would be a clear and decisive way to play euchre. That just isn't the case. Why else do people keep debating even the simplest ploys in euchre all the time? With that said I go on to further break down situations where you may have to keep things in mind. Both partners have to be first aware of said convention. Thats already been taken in consideration then I go on to further elaborate my thoughts in the first paragraph.

The second paragraph is what I personally go through convention or not.


Hope that clarifies things.

Tbolt65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:39 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:47 pm
The second paragraph is what I personally go through convention or not.
Your post is still confusing becuz there is nothing to "go through" if the convention is in place and you have a Next card to lead.

Really this discussion can be clarified with a simple question to anyone:

Vs a 3rd seat loner, do you think it's a good idea for a team to orchestrate a cooperative strategy to maximize the number of times they get to overtrump the maker? IMO, the answer to that question is self-evidently yes, so much so that if anyone answers "No", the burden of proof is on them to explain why.
Last edited by Wes (aka the legend) on Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dlan
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Unread post by Dlan » Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:58 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:21 pm

1. OE welcomes players of all skill levels (new, experienced, advanced) to learn more about enjoying and winning at the game of Euchre. Please note, first, it is a game to be enjoyed. Secondly, we attract players who want to excel at the intricacies of winning Euchre.
2. Our core Euchre principles are reflected in the Lessons and Tips Sections of the Ohio Euchre website. You can test your knowledge with our Quiz. You will enjoy our website and forum much more as you master the “Quiz.” It is challenging and highly educational.
3. Our Forum is intended to be a friendly and Euchre-focused discussion of improving the enjoyment and knowledge of winning at Euchre. Our goal is to encourage communication among the players. That can be a challenge because of the diversity of skill levels, personalities and language barriers. Please be courteous to every poster, after all Euchre is, first and always, a game to be enjoyed, at any skill level.
4. Join us Monday nights 9 PM ET, [WoCG link] for an online game or games.
Richardb02, If you don't mind, I'd like to add this to the home page on the main site :)

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