2008 Las Vegas Tournament hand (With video!)

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Wes (aka the legend)
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Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

2008 Las Vegas Tournament hand (With video!)

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:11 pm

Here's a video of a hand from the Las Vegas Euchre Tournament in 2008:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvX3WDX ... e=emb_logo

Upcard: (Card_A-H)

Dealer: (Card_J-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_9-D) (Card_9-S)
Seat 1: (Card_J-D) (Card_K-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_K-S) (Card_Q-C)
Seat 2: (Card_A-S) (Card_J-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_Q-H) (Card_10-D)
Seat 3: (Card_A-C) (Card_K-C) (Card_K-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_Q-S)

Analyze/evaluate Seat 1's play in the video. Then, if different, tell me how you would play Seat 1's hand first round/2nd round/and what would you lead in whatever scenario you choose.



Tbolt65
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Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:03 pm

Seat 1 play in the video. I'm actually ok with the pass. The score looks to 4 to 2 seat 1 opponents. So they are down by 2 at the start of this hand. Has a good set hand and an ok in next with the right plus boss king if the ace of hearts is turned down. The dealer does turn down. Seat 1 passes again which I disagree with. If you are not ordering 1st round then why are they passing 2nd? I suspect weak play there. Seat 2 calls spades and let's take a flop.( opps wrong game, sorry Doug) if you are wondering check out Doug Polk yt. Channel. So seat 1 leads the turn down suit of hearts, the 9 to be exact. This is practically the worst lead possible. Never open lead the turn down suit with his holding. He has really no way to get the lead back to lead his king of hearts. After this he just following suit. So nothing else to look at. A Trump lead or even a club lead would be much better than the turned down suit.



I would have played seat 1 round 1 exactly the same. It is in round 2 where we differ. After passing round 1, I'm definitely going to call next in round 2. I am leading the jack of diamonds followed by the king of hearts.

Tbolt65
Edward

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:54 pm

Seat 1 on 1st round, PASS.

Round 2 if dealer passes, Next in Diamonds, Lead JD. Then lead Kh as the Ah went down. Then lead the 9h to trick 3.

~Irishwolf

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:58 pm

I would have thought you had better players in Vegas. Sometimes you have to take a chance, but with the JD and Kh you have potentially two tricks. I did the 1st post before looking at the video to not be biased.

Eldest passes next, then leads what was turned down!

Whew!

~Irishwolf

Richardb02
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Unread post by Richardb02 » Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:24 pm

I am not convinced about S1 passing R1.

0.25 S1 R1
0.75 Left
0.50 Kh
0.25 9h
0.25 1 Void
0.50 Any 3 trump
2.50
-.25 Negative Value of Ah up card (-0.50) less 9h minimum (+.25)
2.25 Minimum Order so look at R2

0.50 S1 R2
0.75 S1 Next
1.00 Right
0.50 Kh [note: Ah turned so Kh takes value of the Ah]
0.25 1 Void [But is this legitimate since S1 only has 1 trump?]
3.00 Subtotal
-.50 Only 1 trump {weak hand v strong trump hand]
2.50 Net but
-.25 Only 1 trump negates the value of the void
2.25 Tie with R1 order

It’s a tie. This is where you need to turn to gut reaction or further analysis. Let’s do both.

I prefer 3 trump vs Singleton Right. So my gut says order.

Further analysis:
Passing lets me play for 2 points! I should have caught that already! I decided that passing, from S1, is worth 0.25 if I have a viable call in R2. This forum is great for reminding us of lessons we should not forget. Secondly, -.25 for not having a trump, in my hand, to take advantage of the void, is not the best analysis. I leave my partner’s cards out of the equation!

So further analysis says, pass and then R2 call Next, lead Jd.

If I was S1 and passed and Spades was called, I would lead Jd. A green singleton would be the best choice.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Dec 26, 2019 3:59 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:11 pm
Analyze/evaluate Seat 1's play in the video. Then, if different, tell me how you would play Seat 1's hand first round/2nd round/and what would you lead in whatever scenario you choose.
All you guys nailed it. I don't know what's better between calling diamonds or bagging with the intention of calling next (in this spot I prefer the latter), but that's not what's really important. What matters most as far as Seat 1 play goes is understanding that "Pass, pass" is not an option with this holding.

Although if you change our holding from this:

(Card_J-D) (Card_K-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_K-S) (Card_Q-C)

To this:

(Card_J-D) (Card_K-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_J-S) (Card_Q-C)

Then "Pass, pass" is the play.

But when you don't have reverse next blocked with this hand you gotta "pick a lane bro" and there's 2 viable lanes to choose from: Call diamonds or wait for Next.

After the hero passes in the 2nd round and the 2 seat calls spades, not only does the hero lead the turned down suit which in itself is bad enough, he apparently has already forgotten that the (Card_A-H) was turned down making his (Card_K-H) boss. If you're gonna choose a poor lead, for the love of god at least choose the boss card, not the (Card_9-H) . This hand is an example of very poor Seat 1 play.

As I said before, I prefer passing in the first round and calling Next. If I did, I agree with others that we gotta lead the Right, followed by the boss Kh, then the question is what should we lead after that? Irishwolf says we should lead the (Card_9-H) for trick three. Is he right?

Well the only argument against that would be this: The 9h is not a boss lead, the Th is still out in the wild. Our partner threw off the (Card_Q-S) on our 2nd trick offsuit boss lead. Perhaps it's instead best to lead a spade hoping to catch our partner's void? Generally speaking, when you don't have a boss lead on trick three, leading the suit your partner threw off on your off Ace (or effective ace) will be the best lead, but this hand is different. Everything about this hand is SCREAMING for you to lead that (Card_9-H).

Why is Irishwolf right? Look what happened so far in the hand. After the 2nd trick the dealer has already shown himself to be void in trump and void in hearts. And on the 2nd lead Seat 2 played the (Card_Q-H), suggesting he is also out of hearts. So the 9h has a great chance of being boss, and in the worst case scenario when Seat 2 does have the Th, our partner can safely trump in without worrying about being overtrumped by the dealer. Leading the 9h also potentially puts seat 2 in a nice squeeze where he can burn a trump and get overtrumped. And even if our partner can't overtrump, leading the 9h still forced out another trump from our enemy which is a good outcome for our hand. So the action in this hand clearly dictates our best lead for trick 3 is the 9h. If Seat 2 is void in hearts and doesn't trump in, Seat 3 can play off for an easy trick.

Note: Results oriented arguments are pretty much by definition poor arguments. Nevertheless I'll still point out if the hero calls Next and his teams plays the hand well, they will get 2 points. In the actual hand the hero passed and his team lost 1 point. So calling Next here nets 3 points for the good guys. A 3 point swing in a 'race to 10' game is HUGE. And that's the value of calling Next with marginals in the 2nd rd--simultaneously playing strong defense and tying to hit your partner's range. Yes, your euchre frequency goes up significantly, but all the 2 pt, 3 pt, 4 pt, 5pt, and 6pt swings you create in your team's favor makes up for a lot of euchres in the long run.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:06 pm

I disagree, the QH was played to to the KH. The 10H is buried, most likely. Why play the QH if you also have the 10H? It suggests to me the 9H is the boss card. The rationale is this puts my partner behind seat 2 which most likely will lay off a 2nd lead of hearts. Then 3rd seat can slough junk and putting him in 'end position' if 2nd sloughs. 3rd can slough another junk card and 1st seat takes his choice to lead clubs or spades on trick 4. The dealer had a chance to trump the king of hearts trick, he is void of trump or has the JH? (NO Way) 3rd is not in a squeeze, IMO.
With only the JD, I am comfortable with one point, two is gravy. However, I think this is the best option for two points.

Wes said, ..." calling Next. If I did, I agree with others that we gotta lead the Right, followed by the boss Kh, then the question is what should we lead after that? Irishwolf says we should lead the (Card_9-H) for trick three. Is he right?

Well the only argument against that would be this: The 9h is not a boss lead, the Th is still out in the wild."

~Irishwolf

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:17 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:06 pm
I disagree, the QH was played to to the KH. The 10H is buried, most likely. Why play the QH if you also have the 10H? It suggests to me the 9H is the boss card. The rationale is this puts my partner behind seat 2 which most likely will lay off a 2nd lead of hearts. Then 3rd seat can slough junk and putting him in 'end position' if 2nd sloughs. 3rd can slough another junk card and 1st seat takes his choice to lead clubs or spades on trick 4. The dealer had a chance to trump the king of hearts trick, he is void of trump or has the JH? (NO Way) 3rd is not in a squeeze, IMO.
With only the JD, I am comfortable with one point, two is gravy. However, I think this is the best option for two points.

Wes said, ..." calling Next. If I did, I agree with others that we gotta lead the Right, followed by the boss Kh, then the question is what should we lead after that? Irishwolf says we should lead the (Card_9-H) for trick three. Is he right?

Well the only argument against that would be this: The 9h is not a boss lead, the Th is still out in the wild."

~Irishwolf
I was agreeing with you. I would just showing another possible argument but it is crystal clear to me that we MUST lead the 9H here on the 3rd lead. Leading the 9H puts the 2 seat in a potential squeeze spot which is good for us. 3rd seat our partner can't be put in a squeeze cuz the dealer showed he was void in trump on the KH lead.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:19 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:06 pm
I disagree, the QH was played to to the KH. The 10H is buried, most likely. Why play the QH if you also have the 10H? It suggests to me the 9H is the boss card.
Just a nit, but one should ALWAYS play the QH before the TH in that spot. Those cards are connected. Play the higher one so your enemy has a harder time reading your hand. That said, 2 seat playing the QH still suggests that there's a good chance the 9H is boss + the fact that the dealer is void in trump and hearts = we must lead the 9H.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:55 pm

Okay, 9h is led to trick 3, squeezing 2nd seat.

Not known to 1st seat, his partner now sloughs Ac. Eldest leads a club not his spades.

~Irishwolf

Wes (aka the legend)
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Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:03 am

irishwolf wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:55 pm
Okay, 9h is led to trick 3, squeezing 2nd seat.

Not known to 1st seat, his partner now sloughs Ac. Eldest leads a club not his spades.

~Irishwolf
Exactly. 3rd seat already got rid of his lone spade on the Kh lead, therefore play the Ac telling his P to now lead clubs.

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