Was there a way to avoid a euchre? Weekly 12-16

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Dlan
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Was there a way to avoid a euchre? Weekly 12-16

Unread post by Dlan » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:57 pm

Unfortunately no one showed, that gave me the opportunity to play a game or two against the bots

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https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

I ordered my partner and was euchred. Could there have been a better way to play this hand?



Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:31 pm

Don't trump your partner's (Card_A-D) with the (Card_K-C) .

There's no reason to trump high in that spot. Seat 3 trumped with the (Card_J-C) on the first trick. The only reason to trump your partner's Ad with the Kc is for fear that Seat 3 has the (Card_Q-C) but if Seat 3 had that card he would've played it on the first trick instead of the Right.

Additionally, if Seat 3 also had the (Card_J-S) , trumping your partner's Ace with the (Card_10-C) will force that out just as good as the Kc would. So once again there's no reason to spend the (Card_K-C) on your partner's ace which exposes you to being cornered if Seat 1 has (Card_Q-C) (Card_J-S) . Trump low with the (Card_10-C) instead.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:39 pm

Of course there is a way to make your point. You should have taken more notice that Pone, lisa, played the Right bower to the first trick - obvious to me she has no more trump with an outside chance possibly the JS as well.
Your partner took trick 2 with the 9C but did not lead you trump, either an idiot or has no other trump. Right there are five known trumps, with only the JS/QC remains. Who has these??
It is trick 3 that you made YOUR fatal mistake. You should have played your TC not the KC because 3rd seat probably has none and you would lose any other trump card played if she has the Left. And this now gives you end position if she uses the left if she had it.

So you must take that chance and play the TC. If eldest, R2 has the JS/QC and you have the AC/KC for your 3rd trick. You win your point.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:41 pm

Looks like Wes and I were responding at the same time with the same observations.

~Irishwolf

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:30 pm

Sorry Dlan. I couldn't attend. I was working at that time.

Tbolt65
Edward

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:33 pm

I'm in agreement with the above sentiments of Wes and IrishWolf.

Tbolt65
Edward

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Dlan
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Unread post by Dlan » Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:04 pm

Yep, it looks like I messed up. Thanks for pointing out my error, and yet not being critical of my misplay.

New players seldom get the chance to see how others play a hand. Thanks Wes for your step-by-step analysis (and thanks to irishwolf and Ed as well). By being able to post and see the entire hand could be a great learning tool for all, even me ;)

I will be there again next Monday, Dec 23. Hoping to have other players show up as well.

patiencepays

Unread post by patiencepays » Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:29 pm

If the dealer had chosen to led the Qs instead of the Ad, his team would have scored their point. It was apparent from the playing of the 1st trick the As was buried leaving his Qs as boss in that suit. This lead would have forced 1st seat to use a trump, and be diminished enough that 2nd seat, the trump maker, would have won 2 of the last 3 tricks.

Richardb02
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Unread post by Richardb02 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:13 pm

Hey Dlan, I won't be there December 23. I am having a hip replacement. I missed December 16 because I was celebrating passing my Financial Services Exam. I hope you will be there December 30 as well as other Ohio Euchre players.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:21 pm

Dlan wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:04 pm
Yep, it looks like I messed up. Thanks for pointing out my error, and yet not being critical of my misplay.

New players seldom get the chance to see how others play a hand. Thanks Wes for your step-by-step analysis (and thanks to irishwolf and Ed as well). By being able to post and see the entire hand could be a great learning tool for all, even me ;)

I will be there again next Monday, Dec 23. Hoping to have other players show up as well.
I strongly believe that "being able to post and see the entire hand" is an awesome learning tool. The mistake you made is a mistake I could easily make in the heat of battle and I'm sure I have more times than I would like before. But seeing the hand play out and solving this as if it were a logic puzzle makes me feel more confident that I wont be making this specific mistake again. Of course the thing about euchre is it's a very humbling game. It doesn't matter how much experience one has. It doesn't matter how much one has studied the game. All you have to do is not get enough sleep, or daydream for one split second and next thing you know you messed up. Anyways, I love this feature. Makes me wanna play the bots in search of an interesting hand.

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:10 am

Unfortunately Mondays at the 9pm est/6pm pst I am at work. I drive a taxi so its a little hard for me to play on that day. I'd be definitely interested to see what you guys/gals come up with when you see some various hands that are interesting.



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Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:47 pm

Dlan wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:04 pm
New players seldom get the chance to see how others play a hand....being able to post and see the entire hand could be a great learning tool for all, even me ;)
I tried to play the bots yesterday for a few minutes to see if an interesting spot could come up. This hand isn't much but it's the best I got in that time frame.

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

The upcard is the (Card_A-S) and I'm in Seat 3. My team is up 6-4.

Seat 1: (Card_10-H) (Card_Q-S) (Card_J-D) (Card_J-C) (Card_10-C)
Seat 2: (Card_Q-C) (Card_Q-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_J-S) (Card_9-H)
Seat 3: (Card_K-C) (Card_A-C) (Card_9-S) (Card_J-H) (Card_Q-H)
Seat 4: (Card_9-C) (Card_9-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-S)

1st rd. Everyone passes which makes sense, although if I was the dealer I would pick up with a big lead--E.G up 7-1--as a semi-donate. A hand like:

(Card_A-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-D)

Can still get lucky and score a point. It's worth trying with a big lead given that you only block 1 out of 3 remaining suits.

Onto the 2nd rd. Seat 1 my partner calls Next. Having everything blocked I would not call Next with Right + 1, no off aces, and no voids.

My partner then leads the (Card_10-H)

This is a fine lead. When you call with Right + 1, no off aces from the 1 seat, 2nd rd there's two leads you DON'T wanna make. Don't lead trump (the last thing you want with this marginal holding is for you and your partner to spend trump on the same lead), and don't lead the turned down suit. After that I would veer towards leading singleton green cards. If your partner has an ace in that suit it's least likely to get trumped by the enemy, or if your partner is void in that suit he is least likely to get overtrumped. My partner has two singleton green cards, the Th and the Jd. It doesn't matter which one he leads to me. I personally would lead the Jd since there's a very small chance it could be a boss card (if AdKdQd are all buried in the kitty), whereas the Th can never be a boss card.

The enemy takes the first trick, and I take the 2nd trick and after I take that trick a semi-interesting spot comes up. What should I lead? Should I now lead trump? Since my partner called trump and led a garbage card I figured his holding is weak/marginal--the kind of holding that a trump lead could actually hurt more than help. And I certainly didn't wanna double lead hearts before trump has been led since that will put my partner in a squeeze where he can easily get overtrumped. So I led the fresh suit spade. It sux to have to lead the turned down suit before trump has been led but in this spot I really don't have a good lead, and the spade option just happens to be the least worst one imo.

The rest of the hand played out and we got our 3 tricks. We would've gotten them anyways if I had led trump but I think my line will be best in the long run.

Worthy of note: If everyone had passed to me in the 2nd round, I would've called hearts. Going against Hoyle with Right + 1 + a doubleton green ace is too strong of a hand to pass to the dealer when I only block 1 out of 3 remaining suits. And BTW, this is a premium 2nd rd Seat 3 call if I'm your partner in Seat 1, as I will have a trick in hearts 100% of the time in this spot.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:23 am

I think you have this mixed up. Yes, next is the main call at 1st seat if the dealer turns down spades. Then if 1st seat passes, 2nd seat has either of the two green suits to "cross the suit" as his/her best call. Of course if your hand is strong enough, you can do anything (but you better have close to three probable tricks as partner will be of little help most of the time).

You said, "Worthy of note: If everyone had passed to me in the 2nd round, I would've called hearts. Going against Hoyle with Right + 1 + a doubleton green ace is too strong of a hand to pass to the dealer when I only block 1 out of 3 remaining suits. And BTW, this is a premium 2nd rd Seat 3 call if I'm your partner in Seat 1, as I will have a trick in hearts 100% of the time in this spot."

So where I take issue is your statement saying 3rd seat is going against Hoyle, not calling next. You passed the point of Hoyle with two passes on 2nd round to 3rd seat.

So my point is that you should re-evaluate this whole thing about calling Next at 3rd seat is against Hoyle. (for 2nd round is our discussion) You have had two passes, eldest did not like Next and 2nd seat did not like "{crossing the suit}. And each of those two decisions goes along with "calling for my partner" as much as it is calling for myself. Now 3rd seat can call ANY SUIT he wants (next or crossing the suit). It now has nothing to do with according to any Hoyle call but that call is for himself, the best he has and not calling for my partner. And if he calls green, since his partner passed, it's most like his partner will be of some help.

And of course, there are exceptions if either of those players who passed are baggers, or if the dealer passes with biddable hand to the upcard. It upsets the apple cart, so factor that it. Calling Next also becomes hazardous when opponents are not calling to the upcard with biddable hands.

And if 3rd seat passes, it's that the dealer who also can call anything he wants but Next will be the favored suit BECAUSE, neither 1st nor 3rd wanted Next and your partner did not want green.

It all about the Art of Calling Trump.

~Irishwolf

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:46 pm

Good post Irishwolf. I cede to your correction. A 3rd seat 2nd rd hearts call is not really going against Hoyle becuz we "passed the point of Hoyle with two passes on 2nd round to 3rd seat."

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:55 pm

10-4!

It's all good discussion. And follows in line with T-bolt's call of Next by the dealer in a previous post. One of the secrets of what to call when you have nothing on 2nd round playing STD.

~Irishwolf

Richardb02
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Unread post by Richardb02 » Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:28 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:47 pm
Dlan wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:04 pm
New players seldom get the chance to see how others play a hand....being able to post and see the entire hand could be a great learning tool for all, even me ;)
I tried to play the bots yesterday for a few minutes to see if an interesting spot could come up. This hand isn't much but it's the best I got in that time frame.

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

The upcard is the (Card_A-S) and I'm in Seat 3. My team is up 6-4.

Seat 1: (Card_10-H) (Card_Q-S) (Card_J-D) (Card_J-C) (Card_10-C)
Seat 2: (Card_Q-C) (Card_Q-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_J-S) (Card_9-H)
Seat 3: (Card_K-C) (Card_A-C) (Card_9-S) (Card_J-H) (Card_Q-H)
Seat 4: (Card_9-C) (Card_9-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-S)

1st rd. Everyone passes which makes sense, although if I was the dealer I would pick up with a big lead--E.G up 7-1--as a semi-donate.

I would keep it simpler and pick up as Dealer. My BPS identifies this hand as a 72% probability, which is one “klick” above break even. EV=+0.16, ignoring possible 2 points. Since Next is not blocked and 2 of 3 2nd round calls are not blocked I would go with my 1st round offense as opposed to my 2nd round defense. The BPS:
0.50 S4 R1
0.50 As
0.25 Ts
0.25 Ad Green Tripleton Ace
0.75 2 voids
2.25 points vs 2.00 min order


Onto the 2nd rd. Seat 1 my partner calls Next. Having everything blocked I would not call Next with Right + 1, no off aces, and no voids.

Here in the 2nd round, if I only used BPS Basic, I would order Next. BPS Basic:
0.50 R2 S1
0.75 Next (a keep point that I want to make)
1.00 Jc, Right
0.25 Tc
2.50 vs min 2.25 order from S2

But BPS Advanced says, I have 3 suits blocked, let’s play for euchre and 2 points. It won’t cost me more than 1 point. I give credit to OE and Wes for this education.


I do not see a heart call. Reverse Next on a 9h?!

A diamond call is an edge hand:
0.75 S2 R2
0.25 Reverse Next
0.50 Qd
0.50 Kd
2.00 vs. min 2.00, 65% chance of success, B/E


Worthy of note: If everyone had passed to me in the 2nd round, I would've called hearts. Going against Hoyle with Right + 1 + a doubleton green ace is too strong of a hand to pass to the dealer when I only block 1 out of 3 remaining suits. And BTW, this is a premium 2nd rd Seat 3 call if I'm your partner in Seat 1, as I will have a trick in hearts 100% of the time in this spot.
BPS addresses S3 Hoyle vs. Against-Hoyle:
0.25 S3 R2
0.00 Reverse Next
1.00 Jh
0.50 Qh
0.50 Ac Doubleton Green
0.25 1 Void
0.00 Kc but, +.25? For Boss K
2.50 vs. 2.75 min (based on weak S1), 2.50 strong S1,
2.75 if you credit 0.25 for a “Boss King”
So I would be OK with Wes calling from S3. I would not call playing with the Bots. Bots are usually poor players. This is definitely an edge hand.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:12 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:28 pm
I would keep it simpler and pick up as Dealer. My BPS identifies this hand as a 72% probability, which is one “klick” above break even. EV=+0.16, ignoring possible 2 points. Since Next is not blocked and 2 of 3 2nd round calls are not blocked I would go with my 1st round offense as opposed to my 2nd round defense. The BPS:
0.50 S4 R1
0.50 As
0.25 Ts
0.25 Ad Green Tripleton Ace
0.75 2 voids
2.25 points vs 2.00 min order
You could easily be right! I basically dogmatically dismissed this call at a neutral score due to the tripleton nature of the off Ace. But perhaps having 2 voids makes up for this shortcoming. IDK. If I had that mythical euchre simulator, this spot would be one of the first I would test out.

Here's an article talking about this very spot:

http://borf_books.tripod.com/ecolumns.htm#Doublesuit
Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:28 pm
Here in the 2nd round, if I only used BPS Basic, I would order Next. BPS Basic:
0.50 R2 S1
0.75 Next (a keep point that I want to make)
1.00 Jc, Right
0.25 Tc
2.50 vs min 2.25 order from S2

But BPS Advanced says, I have 3 suits blocked, let’s play for euchre and 2 points. It won’t cost me more than 1 point. I give credit to OE and Wes for this education.
The one exception would be if our opponents are at 9. In that case then we would call next. It's nice that your system supports that. I would only consider passing in the 2nd round when my opponents had 9 if I had a euchre hand. A stopper hand is not strong enough to pass, therefore call something veering towards Next.
Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:28 pm
I do not see a heart call. Reverse Next on a 9h?!

A diamond call is an edge hand:
0.75 S2 R2
0.25 Reverse Next
0.50 Qd
0.50 Kd
2.00 vs. min 2.00, 65% chance of success, B/E
Yes, calling hearts is not an option for Seat 2 if the action gets to him in the 2nd round. His strategic choice is between calling diamonds or passing. I think it's close either way as your system suggests. I suspect having no voids + having Next blocked + our partner being statistically more likely to have some red blocked pushes this potential 2 low trump holding to a pass. If I didn't have Next blocked, and thus I blocked nothing I'm calling reverse next with 2 trump all day every day except if my team is up 9-8. I can't stand this spot if my team is tied 8-8, 7-7, up 8-7, down 8-7, or down 8-6. I feel liked I'm screwed no matter what I do.
Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:28 pm
BPS addresses S3 Hoyle vs. Against-Hoyle:
0.25 S3 R2
0.00 Reverse Next
1.00 Jh
0.50 Qh
0.50 Ac Doubleton Green
0.25 1 Void
0.00 Kc but, +.25? For Boss K
2.50 vs. 2.75 min (based on weak S1), 2.50 strong S1,
2.75 if you credit 0.25 for a “Boss King”
So I would be OK with Wes calling from S3. I would not call playing with the Bots. Bots are usually poor players. This is definitely an edge hand.

I feel like this Seat 3 call is stronger than your system is giving credit for. Either way, passing this "strong" of a hand is not an option when we block only 1 out of 3 remaining suits. And if you ever play with a partner like me, this call will be scoring 2 points a lot more often then you think.

But what about passing to set the dealer? Say I'm your partner and I pass, and you know my passing range is defensively strong. Why not pass also in an STD format? Well the problem with that idea is my passing range will always have reverse next blocked but it wont always have Next blocked. Since you don't have Next blocked it's better to play it safe and call hearts for what would now be an easy point.

If I'm your partner and you had a marginal next call from 3rd like:


(Card_Q-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H)

Now you would pass! Now as a team we for sure have all suits blocked and I'm not guaranteed to give you that much help in Next so there's no point in risking a call. That said, if I pass from Seat 1, 2nd round up 9-7/9-6 then you SHOULD call Next. Since I never pass in that spot without having all suits blocked, now I am guaranteed to help you in any suit you call. Now if you call Next we'll easily closeout for the win.

RedDuke
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Unread post by RedDuke » Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:44 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:12 pm
Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:28 pm
I would keep it simpler and pick up as Dealer. My BPS identifies this hand as a 72% probability, which is one “klick” above break even. EV=+0.16, ignoring possible 2 points. Since Next is not blocked and 2 of 3 2nd round calls are not blocked I would go with my 1st round offense as opposed to my 2nd round defense. The BPS:
0.50 S4 R1
0.50 As
0.25 Ts
0.25 Ad Green Tripleton Ace
0.75 2 voids
2.25 points vs 2.00 min order
You could easily be right! I basically dogmatically dismissed this call at a neutral score due to the tripleton nature of the off Ace. But perhaps having 2 voids makes up for this shortcoming. IDK. If I had that mythical euchre simulator, this spot would be one of the first I would test out.

Here's an article talking about this very spot:

http://borf_books.tripod.com/ecolumns.htm#Doublesuit
Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:28 pm
Here in the 2nd round, if I only used BPS Basic, I would order Next. BPS Basic:
0.50 R2 S1
0.75 Next (a keep point that I want to make)
1.00 Jc, Right
0.25 Tc
2.50 vs min 2.25 order from S2

But BPS Advanced says, I have 3 suits blocked, let’s play for euchre and 2 points. It won’t cost me more than 1 point. I give credit to OE and Wes for this education.
The one exception would be if our opponents are at 9. In that case then we would call next. It's nice that your system supports that. I would only consider passing in the 2nd round when my opponents had 9 if I had a euchre hand. A stopper hand is not strong enough to pass, therefore call something veering towards Next.
Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:28 pm
I do not see a heart call. Reverse Next on a 9h?!

A diamond call is an edge hand:
0.75 S2 R2
0.25 Reverse Next
0.50 Qd
0.50 Kd
2.00 vs. min 2.00, 65% chance of success, B/E
Yes, calling hearts is not an option for Seat 2 if the action gets to him in the 2nd round. His strategic choice is between calling diamonds or passing. I think it's close either way as your system suggests. I suspect having no voids + having Next blocked + our partner being statistically more likely to have some red blocked pushes this potential 2 low trump holding to a pass. If I didn't have Next blocked, and thus I blocked nothing I'm calling reverse next with 2 trump all day every day except if my team is up 9-8. I can't stand this spot if my team is tied 8-8, 7-7, up 8-7, down 8-7, or down 8-6. I feel liked I'm screwed no matter what I do.
Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:28 pm
BPS addresses S3 Hoyle vs. Against-Hoyle:
0.25 S3 R2
0.00 Reverse Next
1.00 Jh
0.50 Qh
0.50 Ac Doubleton Green
0.25 1 Void
0.00 Kc but, +.25? For Boss K
2.50 vs. 2.75 min (based on weak S1), 2.50 strong S1,
2.75 if you credit 0.25 for a “Boss King”
So I would be OK with Wes calling from S3. I would not call playing with the Bots. Bots are usually poor players. This is definitely an edge hand.

I feel like this Seat 3 call is stronger than your system is giving credit for. Either way, passing this "strong" of a hand is not an option when we block only 1 out of 3 remaining suits. And if you ever play with a partner like me, this call will be scoring 2 points a lot more often then you think.

But what about passing to set the dealer? Say I'm your partner and I pass, and you know my passing range is defensively strong. Why not pass also in an STD format? Well the problem with that idea is my passing range will always have reverse next blocked but it wont always have Next blocked. Since you don't have Next blocked it's better to play it safe and call hearts for what would now be an easy point.

If I'm your partner and you had a marginal next call from 3rd like:


(Card_Q-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H)

Now you would pass! Now as a team we for sure have all suits blocked and I'm not guaranteed to give you that much help in Next so there's no point in risking a call. That said, if I pass from Seat 1, 2nd round up 9-7/9-6 then you SHOULD call Next. Since I never pass in that spot without having all suits blocked, now I am guaranteed to help you in any suit you call. Now if you call Next we'll easily closeout for the win.


I seriously wonder what'll happen next time Wes is my partner...

Richardb02
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Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Unread post by Richardb02 » Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:22 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:12 pm
Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:28 pm
Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:47 pm


I tried to play the bots yesterday for a few minutes to see if an interesting spot could come up. This hand isn't much but it's the best I got in that time frame.

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

The upcard is the (Card_A-S) and I'm in Seat 3. My team is up 6-4.

Seat 1: (Card_10-H) (Card_Q-S) (Card_J-D) (Card_J-C) (Card_10-C)
Seat 2: (Card_Q-C) (Card_Q-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_J-S) (Card_9-H)
Seat 3: (Card_K-C) (Card_A-C) (Card_9-S) (Card_J-H) (Card_Q-H)
Seat 4: (Card_9-C) (Card_9-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-S)

1st rd. Everyone passes which makes sense, although if I was the dealer I would pick up with a big lead--E.G up 7-1--as a semi-donate.

I would keep it simpler and pick up as Dealer. My BPS identifies this hand as a 72% probability, which is one “klick” above break even. EV=+0.16, ignoring possible 2 points. Since Next is not blocked and 2 of 3 2nd round calls are not blocked I would go with my 1st round offense as opposed to my 2nd round defense. The BPS:
0.50 S4 R1
0.50 As
0.25 Ts
0.25 Ad Green Tripleton Ace
0.75 2 voids
2.25 points vs 2.00 min order



You could easily be right! I basically dogmatically dismissed this call at a neutral score due to the tripleton nature of the off Ace. But perhaps having 2 voids makes up for this shortcoming. IDK. If I had that mythical euchre simulator, this spot would be one of the first I would test out.

Here's an article talking about this very spot:

http://borf_books.tripod.com/ecolumns.htm#Doublesuit

The one exception would be if our opponents are at 9. In that case then we would call next. It's nice that your system supports that. I would only consider passing in the 2nd round when my opponents had 9 if I had a euchre hand. A stopper hand is not strong enough to pass, therefore call something veering towards Next.

Yes, calling hearts is not an option for Seat 2 if the action gets to him in the 2nd round. His strategic choice is between calling diamonds or passing. I think it's close either way as your system suggests. I suspect having no voids + having Next blocked + our partner being statistically more likely to have some red blocked pushes this potential 2 low trump holding to a pass. If I didn't have Next blocked, and thus I blocked nothing I'm calling reverse next with 2 trump all day every day except if my team is up 9-8. I can't stand this spot if my team is tied 8-8, 7-7, up 8-7, down 8-7, or down 8-6. I feel liked I'm screwed no matter what I do.
Thanks Wes. I would like to quickly review the BPS. It started with the Spruce Craft system. It is simply way too simple for the wonderful game of Euchre. Just like Eric Zalas! I kept the points for cards. That much was reasonable: the Right has a value of 1.00 and the other cards had a lower value, 0.75 for a Left, 0.50 for A, K or Q of Trump, 0.25 for a T or 9 of Trump, and 0.50 for an off suit Ace.

I then “guesstimated”, based on Dan’s training on OE (Ohio Euchre), values for Seat Positions, Round 1 or 2, Green vs. Black Ace, Singleton, Doubleton & Tripleton Aces, Voids and 2 Suited (2 Voids), Hoyle (Next and Reverse Next) and 3 or more Trump.

The next step was personal experience with BPS and the posts on OE. I melded information from Wes, IrishWolf, RedDuke, Tbolt and others to continue to refine BPS. The most important areas are scores of 7-7 or greater, as well as 2nd Round possibilities (especially S1). I also kept factors worth less than 0.25 points out of the BPS. I wanted this to be a basic system. There are also advanced concepts but lets stick to basic concepts for now.

BPS is first and foremost, a checklist of factors (easily observable situations). Wes’ “ah-hah” moment was that even a Tripleton Ace has value and when added to the value of 2 voids, made the Dealer’s hand viable.

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:12 pm

I feel like this Seat 3 call is stronger than your system is giving credit for. Either way, passing this "strong" of a hand is not an option when we block only 1 out of 3 remaining suits. And if you ever play with a partner like me, this call will be scoring 2 points a lot more often then you think.


Yes, I agree that S3 R2 could use an adjustment. I could use your help. If this is your edge hand, ignoring advanced concepts like euchre hands, blocking hands and other players, than simply adjusting S3 R2 from 0.25 to 0.50 makes sense. In another post though (strictly my memory), your hand was a tad weaker than this hand. That would support +0.75. That isn’t unreasonable. What are your thoughts (everyone else too)?




But what about passing to set the dealer? Say I'm your partner and I pass, and you know my passing range is defensively strong. Why not pass also in an STD format? Well the problem with that idea is my passing range will always have reverse next blocked but it wont always have Next blocked. Since you don't have Next blocked it's better to play it safe and call hearts for what would now be an easy point.

If I'm your partner and you had a marginal next call from 3rd like:[/color]

(Card_Q-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H)

Now you would pass! Now as a team we for sure have all suits blocked and I'm not guaranteed to give you that much help in Next so there's no point in risking a call. That said, if I pass from Seat 1, 2nd round up 9-7/9-6 then you SHOULD call Next. Since I never pass in that spot without having all suits blocked, now I am guaranteed to help you in any suit you call. Now if you call Next we'll easily closeout for the win.

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:26 pm

With you having this as a 2.75 and a 2.00 is bare minimum to call. Don't over think it and go with what your numbers show. It's a call.

Tbolt65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:32 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:44 am
I seriously wonder what'll happen next time Wes is my partner...
We'd probably win or I would get euchred 3 or 4 times and we'd lose which would still be your fault based on the tenets of chapter 2 of my future book: "Always Blame Your Partner". The title of chapter 1 is "Never Pass" for those wondering.

Richardb02
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Unread post by Richardb02 » Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:07 pm

Tbolt, I am 100% on board with your approach. If you have a system, use it. Unfortunately this thread gave you incomplete information.

The Minimum to call is based on Seat Position:
2.25 S1
2.00 S2
2.75 S3
2.00 S4 (Dealer)
You were correctly applying a 2.00 minimum to the OP (Opening Post) of this this thread.

You replied to a S3 position, which has an adjusted minimum of 2.75 points. That’s what makes the exchange with Wes so informative.

It is an edge hand, and addresses additional factors:
1. A S3 R1 order is a very difficult order. The BPS may still understate the minimum and not by just one “tad” but 2.
2. Conversely, a S3 R2 call minimum is probably too high by 1 or 2 “tads.”
3. My role in the BPS is taking experience, mostly from others and translating them into relative values (points). When experienced players define their Edge Hands, I have hit the BPS gold mine.

I have learned that every great guideline like, “If you have a system, use it,” has to be followed with a “but.” My “but” is that systems aren’t perfect (especially BPS, stay humble), test your results, while understanding that a minimal call is an edge hand (so don’t be dogmatic, look at other “sub-factors) before making a decision and look to more experienced and knowledgeable people for the information that can refine BPS to be even more effective.

Tbolt, what is your S3 R2 edge hand with the restrictions of card and card-combinations only (no playing to euchre or score dictating your decision).

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:50 am

Well with your s3 round 2 min. Set at 2.75 and this hand comes out to roughly 2.75. Then it meets the bare requirements. But with euchre sometimes meeting your bare requirements regardless of what methods are employed to gage that . One can also pass in those situations. So I'm not really sure how you handle those spots within your system. To always call or to always pass at the bare minimum in the bps system would seem to rigid. Perhaps you use other factors? For me on bare minimum calls. I do pass at times but In general I'm mostly calling.

Tbolt65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:35 am

Here's a hand where I made the exact same mistake. Simple logic and hand reading should lead me to trump low on the 4th trick. If S1 has another trump it has to be another bower. No need to trump high. Not sure what the hell I was thinking. Lost focus on this one.

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

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