Let's play a hand

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Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Let's play a hand

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:23 pm

I think it's always good to have a hand to talk about. I dealt this hand alone at my kitchen table today. For all questions, assume nobody can see anyone else's cards.

Score is 0-0. Dealer upcard is the (Card_10-S)

Dealer: (Card_A-S) (Card_A-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-D)

Seat 1: (Card_Q-S) (Card_J-S) (Card_K-H) (Card_J-H) (Card_A-D)

Seat 2: (Card_9-S) (Card_Q-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_K-C) (Card_9-C)

Seat 3: (Card_K-S) (Card_K-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_A-C)

1) If you think the dealer should pick up what should he discard? Assume you have no read on Seat 1's leading tendencies. If the dealer does pick up what should Seat 1 lead?

2) If the dealer passes, should Seat 1 call or not? If so, what should Seat 1 call, and what should he lead. Also, tell me what Seat 3 should play on the first lead.

3) If seat 1 passes, should Seat 2 call something? If so what?

4) If it gets passed around to Seat 3 what should he call, and what should Seat 1 lead?

5) If it gets passed around back to the dealer, what should he call? And what should Seat 1 lead?

Bonus question: If the dealer passes spades and Seat 1 calls hearts will he make it or get euchred? Assume everyone plays well.



Richardb02
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Location: Florida

Unread post by Richardb02 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:03 pm

I suggest that S1 should order in Round 1. Lead the Right. Follow with the Ad. Follow with the Jh. Take trick 3 with the Qs.

irishwolf
Posts: 700
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:03 pm

I did this ignoring what the other hands had as I considered each decision.

>If this were me (S1), I am passing the 10S - it's close to having a euchre hand. I have two tricks in spades if I order.

>If S4, dealer, I am also passing, I am not worried about a loner as I have two possible stoppers to a next loner..
>Then S1, again passing.
>Then S2, hearts is the only thing to call, but I would pass.
>Then S3, call Diamonds, since S1 & S1 passed again, S3 can cross the suit.

~Irishwolf

irishwolf
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:12 pm

PART II: PLAYING THE HAND
On S3 calling Diamonds, S1 MUST lead the JH to the first trick. You lead your best, not the AD, only lead once.

If that wins, then lead the KH. I want to stay away from leading spades and putting the dealer behind my partner as he may be void in spades and strong in diamonds (this is not observing who has what.

jspectre
Posts: 48
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Unread post by jspectre » Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:15 am

1.) I don't believe the dealer should pick up, he should force a clubs call, with 2 aces he's still likely to get a trick, and calling just to stop a rare loner isn't a play I want to be making at neutral scores. I would discard the diamond because people tend to lead green when possible, and next is the most likely suit my partner can trump. In seat 1, I would lead the Ace of diamonds because it's a singleton green ace.

2. Seat 1 should not call, he has reverse next blocked, and most likely doesn't have to worry about a next call from 2nd seat. However, if 1st seat has a bad feeling about passing, I wouldn't begrudge them for making it hearts, but to me it just doesn't seem like a call worth making, unless stopping a loner is imperative.

3. At neutral scores seat 2 needs to pass, it's just not worth the risk of making a very marginal call in hearts here. If clubs does get called you have a void diamonds you can probably take advantage of. You won't be any help to your partner in diamonds, and if you are euchred in diamonds while hearts could have made a point, that stings, but I still don't think it's worth the gamble. Your partner could easily have clubs and the opponents are too scared to pull the trigger.

4.) Assuming these are strong players, seat 3 has an easier diamonds call than normal. He can somewhat assume his partner has at least one bower in red since he made no attempt at a next call, and with an outside ace this is almost guaranteed to make a point. If we are down by 4 points or more, I would strongly consider going alone here. Seat one should of course only lead the left, and then the king.

5.) The dealer should call hearts, it's his best hand in reverse next, and the most likely thing he will get help in. Of course, it never should make it back to the dealer. Seat 1 should lead the ace of diamonds, it's next, but with a full board pass it's likely to fly, but little does he know that seat 3 was holding out on him. I don't believe there should be any difference between the dealer calling or 1st seat calling, this should be a euchre if played correctly.

Bonus - I believe hearts will be made if everyone plays correctly, but I'm curious whether a trump lead with the 10h from the dealer is the correct play or if leading the small club is correct. If 1st seat plays correctly then they should lead the lone diamond and then look to cash in with the K on his club void, then play the right. Unfortunately, this is not meant to be, and then 2nd seat should lead back a spade to his partners ace, hoping for him to be void. Now, if the dealer plays a small club, surely the maker can't trump here and lead the right and then play his boss spade, that only eliminates a single round of trump, so he has to play off, hence why I believe a trump lead from the dealer is the only correct play, and then the maker must use the K and not the right, he has no choice but to assume the dealer has the Ace remaining and that the left is either buried or in his partners hand, in which case he could then play his ace of clubs, which will walk.

The maker can easily be euchred if he plays incorrectly in this spot.

RedDuke
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Unread post by RedDuke » Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:28 am

S1 Round 1 - Calling is a reasonable play here but you're also in a good position to euchre the dealer if he picks up. You also have a decent reverse next hand. I'd probably pass here unless we're at 9.

S2 Round 1 - Pass. Your hand isn't good enough to call spades. Let your partner decide what to do.

S3 Round 1 - Pass. This hand isn't good enough to order up the dealer.

Dealer Round 1 - Calling with only Ace+10 and a side ace is just asking for trouble. If I knew that my partner was a very weak bidder I might try it and hope he's got a bower. If my partner is a strong bidder though, he wouldn't let it get to me with a solid spades hand. I'm passing. Change one of those trash cards to any spade though and I'll pick up.

S1 Round 2 - This is a tough spot to be in. I hate passing in round 2. But at the same time, your hand is good enough to pose a problem for a maker in any other suit. Because of that, I'm going to pass here and try to euchre the maker unless my side is at 9.

S2 Round 2 - Pass.

S3 Round 2 - Calling from seat 3 is always iffy but you can loosen up a bit in the second round because you aren't giving the dealer a trump. You know that your partner passed so he probably either has total trash or has a hand that is reasonably strong in any suit. Because of that, this is worth calling diamonds.

Dealer Round 2 - If it makes it back to the dealer in Round 2, call hearts and hope for the best.

patiencepays

Unread post by patiencepays » Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:10 pm

"5) If it gets passed around back to the dealer, what should he call?"

Dealer would be wise to pass again and force a new deal.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:45 pm

patiencepays wrote: ↑
Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:10 pm
"5) If it gets passed around back to the dealer, what should he call?"

Dealer would be wise to pass again and force a new deal.
99.9% of all the euchre I have ever played has been a stick the dealer variant. I forget that there's even another option. So yeah, just assume in any post I ever make that an STD format is implied.

As far as other posts, I'm gonna let this thread bake a little bit more before I reply. A lot of good stuff so far.

Tbolt65
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Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:07 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:23 pm
I think it's always good to have a hand to talk about. I dealt this hand alone at my kitchen table today. For all questions, assume nobody can see anyone else's cards.

Score is 0-0. Dealer upcard is the (Card_10-S)

Dealer: (Card_A-S) (Card_A-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-D)

Seat 1: (Card_Q-S) (Card_J-S) (Card_K-H) (Card_J-H) (Card_A-D)

Seat 2: (Card_9-S) (Card_Q-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_K-C) (Card_9-C)

Seat 3: (Card_K-S) (Card_K-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_A-C)

1) If you think the dealer should pick up what should he discard? Assume you have no read on Seat 1's leading tendencies. If the dealer does pick up what should Seat 1 lead? Dealer won't be picking up, dealer is passing.

2) If the dealer passes, should Seat 1 call or not? If so, what should Seat 1 call, and what should he lead. Also, tell me what Seat 3 should play on the first lead. Yes. Hearts. Lead is the Jack of Hearts. 10 of Diamonds played by Seat 3.

3) If seat 1 passes, should Seat 2 call something? If so what? Yes. With out knowing the cards, this is a heart call for their partner since dealer turned down black.

4) If it gets passed around to Seat 3 what should he call, and what should Seat 1 lead? Seat three will be calling Diamonds and seat 1 will be leading the Jack of Hearts.

5) If it gets passed around back to the dealer, what should he call? And what should Seat 1 lead? Call Clubs. Seat 1 leads the Ace of Diamond.

Bonus question: If the dealer passes spades and Seat 1 calls hearts will he make it or get euchred? Assume everyone plays well. Trick question, the answer is both. There are a few variables on the lead back which depends on who has the various leads throughout the hand. Also with-in those variables there will be a time possibly for the Maker to layoff a hand. If he doesn't let their partner take one he is euchred. All this is taken into consideration even when the players are known to play well. But if I was playing every hand at the table The maker would Make it 100% of the time when they call hearts in first Seat in the 2nd Round.


Side note: I also used your assumption of, "Assume everyone plays well" for all the above situations in my responses.


Tbolt65
Edward

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:28 pm

T-BOLT says,

"But if I was playing every hand at the table The maker would Make it 100% of the time when they call hearts in first Seat in the 2nd Round."

"2) If the dealer passes, should Seat 1 call or not? If so, what should Seat 1 call, and what should he lead. Also, tell me what Seat 3 should play on the first lead. Yes. Hearts. Lead is the Jack of Hearts. 10 of Diamonds played by Seat 3."

How's so? You violated a critical fundamental of euchre, You crossed the suit (the term Reverse Next is not the correct terminology) on 2nd round at the eldest seat. You can do this but MUST have a strong, 3 probable tricks. You do not have three probably tricks. There are many hands where you will get euchred. An opponent with three trumps or opponents with two trumps each, void to your spades with two diamonds putting you in a squeeze.
On and on hands and you will not make a point 100% of the time as stated. So beware when crossing the suit at 1st seat.

~Irishwolf

Tbolt65
Posts: 487
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Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:01 pm

irishwolf wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:28 pm


"2) If the dealer passes, should Seat 1 call or not? If so, what should Seat 1 call, and what should he lead. Also, tell me what Seat 3 should play on the first lead. Yes. Hearts. Lead is the Jack of Hearts. 10 of Diamonds played by Seat 3."

How's so? You violated a critical fundamental of euchre, You crossed the suit (the term Reverse Next is not the correct terminology) on 2nd round at the eldest seat. You can do this but MUST have a strong, 3 probable tricks. You do not have three probably tricks. There are many hands where you will get euchred. An opponent with three trumps or opponents with two trumps each, void to your spades with two diamonds putting you in a squeeze.
On and on hands and you will not make a point 100% of the time as stated. So beware when crossing the suit at 1st seat.

~Irishwolf
Well sometime you just have to trust your partner for 1. πŸ˜‰

Tbolt65
Edward

RedDuke
Posts: 393
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Unread post by RedDuke » Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:30 am

Tbolt65 wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:07 pm
5) If it gets passed around back to the dealer, what should he call? And what should Seat 1 lead? Call Clubs. Seat 1 leads the Ace of Diamond.
Seriously? You're calling next as the dealer (best call is usually reverse next) with only the ten of clubs. A better call would be hearts. That's reverse next so you have better odds of hitting your partner's hand and you have a stronger hand in hearts than in clubs.

Tbolt65
Posts: 487
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:25 am

In this spot yes I am. Remember. We are assuming everyone plays well. Which means above average. So my partner passing indicates that possibly they have help in all suits or a euchre hand. So I'm going to call something that will hit my partner plus have a some other avenues covered. Having 2 weak side suit vs just one weak side suit is alot to overcome. I'll take the 1, in this particular situation.

Now I agree, a reverse next call is standard and preferable if you have a weaker calling partner. I think it's close here based on the info about the players level.

Tbolt65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:47 pm

Richardb02 wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:03 pm
I suggest that S1 should order in Round 1. Lead the Right. Follow with the Ad. Follow with the Jh. Take trick 3 with the Qs.
Never order from Seat 1, 1st round when you have a viable 2nd round hand. Never forget Seat 1's great privilege of getting first option in the 2nd round. Don't waste it. Also, in this case you have more than a viable 2nd round hand. Crossing the river with a 2nd rd hearts call with [(Right + King) + singleton short ace] is actually a better call than challenging the dealer with [(Right + Queen) + a singleton green ace]. Calling spades here with this hand--giving the enemy a trump and knowing the dealer now gets to create a void--when you have a better call in the 2nd rd is actually an egregious mistake. Don't do it.

Mxx
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Unread post by Mxx » Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:03 pm

1. Pass. With two aces I have defence in next and a supportive hand for a seat 2 call

2. Pass. Reverse next is covered and in my view a point is unlikely in any suit

3. Call hearts. There is no defence in my hand so I lean on my partner to be strong in reverse next

4. Call diamonds. Three and the off ace is pretty good on its own and I expect my partner to have a trump and or an ace in support. Seat 1 to lead the jack of hearts

5. Call hearts since most of the time my partner passed a viable reverse next hand.

Bonus. It's euchre time as the opposition has diamonds and spades covered. I know what you're getting at Wes, you are advocating a double trump lead to make your teams aces good. It works in this situation but is it a good strategy in general?

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:22 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:23 pm
I think it's always good to have a hand to talk about. I dealt this hand alone at my kitchen table today. For all questions, assume nobody can see anyone else's cards.

Score is 0-0. Dealer upcard is the (Card_10-S)

Dealer: (Card_A-S) (Card_A-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-D)

Seat 1: (Card_Q-S) (Card_J-S) (Card_K-H) (Card_J-H) (Card_A-D)

Seat 2: (Card_9-S) (Card_Q-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_K-C) (Card_9-C)

Seat 3: (Card_K-S) (Card_K-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_A-C)
Wes (aka the legend) wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:23 pm
1) If you think the dealer should pick up what should he discard? Assume you have no read on Seat 1's leading tendencies. If the dealer does pick up what should Seat 1 lead?
As the dealer I'm calling spades with 2 trump + a green ace when I don't block any suits. Here's this spot discussed in another thread:
Wes (aka the legend) wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:39 pm
BTW, the above is why I would never recommend this book to a novice but would to any strong euchre player who can quickly discern what these numbers really mean. The magic of the book is the Author unknowingly confirms why the experts are right over and over with his own numbers. And from this data we get some pretty interesting results. For instance, in my Advanced Euchre Quiz I advised people to make this thin call from the dealer spot:
2) The score is 0-0. You are the dealer.

The upcard is the (Card_10-C)

You hold (Card_A-D), (Card_K-C), (Card_10-H), (Card_9-H), (Card_9-S)

ANSWER: Call clubs. When you block no suits, two trump plus a singleton green ace is a call more for defensive purposes than offensive purposes. Yes it's a marginal call, and you will certainly get euchred more than you'd like. The theory here is you will squeeze out enough points offensively, plus block enough seat 1 loners + seat 1 calls that end up getting 2 points or 1 point, to make up for the higher euchre frequency of this marginal holding. I would also make this defensive call with two trump and a doubleton green ace, or two trump and a singleton non-green ace.
This hand was interesting becuz it got almost a split decision by the quiz takers:
RedDuke wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:26 pm
2. Pass
Don wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:35 pm
2) Pick the 10.
irishwolf wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:55 am
2. order – AND could also be pass
Richardb02 wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:26 pm
2. Bid, if you have decided you want to play aggressively. 2.00
Suz wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:31 pm
2) I would pass
Tbolt65 wrote: ↑
Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:13 pm
2) Pass. I don't donate at 0-0.
Now wouldn't it be cool if we had some math to back up my answer? Well we kinda do thanx to EZ's book:
EZ: "Hand 198. Dealer picks up the Ace of Hearts and now holds the Ace-10 of hearts, the 10-9 of clubs, and the Ace of spades. Dealer discards the 9 of spades and plays the hearts trump. EO = -.274. N = 321

(Card_A-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_A-S)

Analysis: This hand has a 56.07% win rate and a mean expected outcome of negative -.274 points per attempt when played from the dealer position based on a robust sample size of 321 hands played. This hand gets slapped silly 43.93% of the time based on the referenced data set. Don Bunn, creator of the Ohio Euchre website, says, "Bid, if you're the dealer and you already hold one of the turn suit, plus a green Ace. On this hand you are going to need your partner's help." The dealer will need more than just help from your partner with hand 198. Euchremetrics analysis shows that the partner takes a meaningful trick on 180 hands, or 56.1% of the total hands that the dealer named trump with this hand. Despite the partner helping out more than half of the time, this play generates .879 points per play for the opponents.
Hand 198 is an example of a highly aggressive player trying to invent a reason to name trump. In this case the dealer's illusion of control comes with a heavy price tag."
First, I don't know why the author said "this play generates .879 points per play for the opponents." The author's numbers indicates this play actually generates .274 points for our opponents, as the EO = -.274. The author does this quite often. He brings a number out of nowhere that doesn't comport with his actual data. Ok back to the actual hand, the reason why I said we 'kinda' have some math to back up my quiz answer is becuz my hand and the book's hand aren't perfectly analogous, but I think they're close enough. Now let's do an EV analysis--correctly factoring in that passing has a cost--using the author's numbers to see if calling with this hand is a good idea. The author's hand gets 1 point 51.71% of the time, 2 points 4.36% and euchred 43.93%.

Using the usual probability chart:

http://members.tripod.com/borf_books/euchprob.htm

And assuming the cost of passing = 1

Our win equity if we call: (.5171 x .55) + (.0436 x .62) + (.4393 x .36) = 46.96%

Our win equity if we pass: 43%

46.96% > 43%, therefore calling is best.

If you ask me, it's pretty cool that we can use data from EZ's book to help guide us on some close/debatable spots. All we have to do is ignore the author's words and just look at his numbers.
Worthy of note, when you have the deal at 0-0 your team starts out with approx 51% equity. If you order this marginal hand up your equity drops to around 47%. Not good you might think as it almost feels like you just set 4% equity on fire here, but compare that to the amount of equity you lose if you pass: 8%!! Your team's equity drops 8%, from 51% to 43% the instant you pass. Thus ordering up this marginal hand has an overall +EV of 4%. Rebuttal: ok but your numbers are assuming Seat 1 is competent. If Seat 1 plays bad there's no way you lose 8% by passing. True. I agree. Maybe you only lose half that amount instead. In that case it would be a virtual tie between calling and passing, both actions give your team around 47% equity. Point being Seat 1 would have to play really bad for this to be a +EV pass. How badly we'll never know until we can put it to the test with that mythical euchre simulator.

For more on the topic of ordering up with two trump and a green ace, read an article from this site:

https://ohioeuchre.com/E_When-Should_Yo ... ample3.php
Wes (aka the legend) wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:23 pm
1) If you think the dealer should pick up what should he discard? Assume you have no read on Seat 1's leading tendencies. If the dealer does pick up what should Seat 1 lead?
I would discard the (Card_9-D). I think most players tend to lead green so discard green, but always pay attention and be ready to adjust to player tendencies. IOW:
Ohioeuchre: "Careful observation of your opponents' play and habits can be helpful here. Hand after hand, many euchre players have a tendency to play the same way. Many players almost always lead their green suit (for example, if hearts were trump, they would lead clubs or spades; if clubs were trump they would lead hearts or diamonds.) In this instance, given a choice, the best discard would be one of the green suits. There are also those players that tend to lead next. You should watch for trends in their method of play and adjust you play accordingly."

https://ohioeuchre.com/L-Learn_To_Play_ ... iscard.php
If the dealer picked up Seat 1 should lead the (Card_A-D) . A singleton green ace is pretty much the beat lead possible outside of scenarios when a trump lead on defense is better. For more info on what to lead:

https://ohioeuchre.com/L-Learn_To_Play_ ... o_Lead.php

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:16 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:23 pm
Score is 0-0. Dealer upcard is the (Card_10-S)

Dealer: (Card_A-S) (Card_A-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-D)

Seat 1: (Card_Q-S) (Card_J-S) (Card_K-H) (Card_J-H) (Card_A-D)

Seat 2: (Card_9-S) (Card_Q-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_K-C) (Card_9-C)

Seat 3: (Card_K-S) (Card_K-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_A-C)
Wes (aka the legend) wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:23 pm
2) If the dealer passes, should Seat 1 call or not? If so, what should Seat 1 call, and what should he lead. Also, tell me what Seat 3 should play on the first lead.
I think the 2nd round is close between calling hearts or passing. Excluding scenarios when my opponent's are at 9 the minimum I need to cross the river when I already have reverse next blocked is "Left + 2 + nothing else" or "Right + 1 + an off ace".

If I had no clubs in my hand, say I had a hand like this:

(Card_Q-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_K-H) (Card_J-H) (Card_A-D)

I'm ordering hearts without hesitation. It's not that I fear the possibility of Seat 2 being loaded in clubs that badly, it's just that crossing the river with "Right + 1 + an off ace" scores a point often enough, to not risk it. So to reiterate, I am never passing this "strong" of a hand when I have no clubs in my hand. And these are the kind of spots that make me despise playing with the pejoratively named "loyal hoyle" players, I.E. the type of players that will put your team in peril in the 2nd round simply becuz they religiously will not go against Hoyle. Again, as I've said before, the best players in the world don't go with hoyle, they play to win. Hoyle is just one factor in their decision making.

I would also call hearts with this hand in this spot:

(Card_Q-S) (Card_9-C) (Card_K-H) (Card_J-H) (Card_A-D)

Again, this hearts call is just strong enough for me to not risk Seat 2 calling clubs. Having a baby club in my hand does not make me much more secure.

Now back to the original hand:

(Card_Q-S) (Card_J-S) (Card_K-H) (Card_J-H) (Card_A-D)

Holding a bower in clubs is significant as it does lower the probability of Seat 2 having a clubs call. I think passing with hearts with this configuration is ok but I'm still not against calling hearts. I mean if we pass our team is really only happy if Seat 2 calls hearts or passes. If Seat 2 calls clubs we hate life. If Seat 2 calls diamonds, we only have 1 trick and odds are our P is will not have 2 more tricks to euchre our opponent. So a Seat 2 diamonds call is a significant favorite to score a point even tho we have that blocked. Overall I'm totally fine with Seat 1 calling hearts here becuz he doesn't have clubs blocked. Yes we're going against Hoyle but "Right + 1 + a singleton short Ace" scores a point often enough. Again, with this specific hand configuration I am not sure what's better between calling hearts and passing. I usually veer towards calling hearts tho.
Wes (aka the legend) wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:23 pm
2) If the dealer passes, should Seat 1 call or not? If so, what should Seat 1 call, and what should he lead. Also, tell me what Seat 3 should play on the first lead.
If Seat 1 calls hearts he should lead the Right bower, now what should Seat 3 play on the first lead? Let's go back to Seat 3's hand:

(Card_K-S) (Card_K-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_A-C)

Obviously Seat 3 should not throw away the Ac on a trump lead, and Seat 3 should hold onto the Ks just in case the As is buried. So now it comes down to the (Card_K-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_10-D) .

Well all those cards are connected and thus equivalent so it doesn't matter what we play................NOT SO FAST MY FRIEND. Remember always be a good partner, legally communicating with your cards as much as you can. When your partner calls trump, leads the Right, and you have no trump, your first priority, if possible, is to let your partner know where one of your aces is.

If you have a hand like this: (Card_A-S) (Card_K-S) (Card_K-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_10-D)

You would play the As on the first lead letting him know you have spades covered.

If you had a hand like this: (Card_A-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_A-S) (Card_Q-D) (Card_9-D)

You would play the (Card_9-C) on the first lead weakly letting him know you have clubs covered.

Now back to your hand (Card_K-S) (Card_K-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_A-C):

If you play the (Card_10-D) or the (Card_Q-D) you're actually weakly telling your partner that you have the (Card_A-D). But if you play the (Card_K-D) you are emphatically telling your partner you DO NOT have the Ad becuz if you had (Card_A-D) (Card_K-D) you would play the Ad on the first lead letting him know you have diamonds covered. So this is why you should play the Kd on the first lead, to let your partner know you DO NOT have diamonds covered. This is information your partner can utilize. Playing the Td or the Qd actually weakly suggests you may have the Ad. Don't give your partner bad information when you can give him perfect information.

Imagine you had a hand like this:

(Card_A-C) (Card_K-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_A-S)

Not playing the Kd would be a large mistake. All you have to do is is play that Kd on the first lead and you now perfectly steer your partner to one of your Aces. Playing a lower diamond just encourages your partner to think you have diamonds covered, which can lead him to leading it or playing off it, both terrible outcomes for your team.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:43 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:23 pm
Score is 0-0. Dealer upcard is the (Card_10-S)

Dealer: (Card_A-S) (Card_A-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-D)

Seat 1: (Card_Q-S) (Card_J-S) (Card_K-H) (Card_J-H) (Card_A-D)

Seat 2: (Card_9-S) (Card_Q-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_K-C) (Card_9-C)

Seat 3: (Card_K-S) (Card_K-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_A-C)
Wes (aka the legend) wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:23 pm
3) If seat 1 passes, should Seat 2 call something? If so what?
Call hearts. In a typical game there is no way I'm passing this hand. Remember euchre is a partnership game, don't just play your 5 cards. Do what's best for your team. You block nothing, with no aces. Play good defense and try to hit your partner's range. That's your job in the 2nd round. Your P turned down a black card, call reverse next with 2 hearts. Passing the ball to the 3rd seat with this hand is unacceptable. Now all that said, if Seat 1 is a pro who only passes in this spot when he has reverse next blocked, this call may not be successful enough despite its defensive benefits. That's a special scenario that barely ever comes up. 99% of the time this is a MUST call. As Belichick would say "Do your job!"
Wes (aka the legend) wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:23 pm
4) If it gets passed around to Seat 3 what should he call, and what should Seat 1 lead?
Seat 3 should call diamonds, and Seat 1 should lead the Left.
Wes (aka the legend) wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:23 pm
5) If it gets passed around back to the dealer, what should he call? And what should Seat 1 lead?
The dealer should call hearts, and Seat 1 should lead the (Card_A-D) . No reason for Seat 1 to lead trump, and you never wanna lead the turned down suit if you can help it. Plus a singleton Next Ace is a decent lead in itself.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:07 am

RedDuke wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:30 am
Tbolt65 wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:07 pm
5) If it gets passed around back to the dealer, what should he call? And what should Seat 1 lead? Call Clubs. Seat 1 leads the Ace of Diamond.
Seriously? You're calling next as the dealer (best call is usually reverse next) with only the ten of clubs. A better call would be hearts. That's reverse next so you have better odds of hitting your partner's hand and you have a stronger hand in hearts than in clubs.
I think Tbolt's implied argument--which is somewhat compelling--is IF your P plays really well, his range will be weakest in reverse next precisely because he passed. A really good P will be calling reverse next super aggressively in this spot. Like take this hand for example:

You turned down a black card and it gets to your P in the 2nd rd with:

(Card_10-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_10-S)

A really good P is calling hearts every time in that spot, simultaneously playing good defense and trying to hit his partner's range with a reverse next call.

Ok so when a really good P passes in that same spot one has to wonder what's his range then? One would think it's gotta be super weak in reverse next given how aggressively a good P will be trying to hit his partner. A really good P probably is more likely to have 2 clubs than 2 diamonds or 2 hearts after he passes.

Also, a really good P is more likely to have the (Card_J-C) than any red bower after he passes. So you can see why Edward is advocating for an unconventional clubs call for the dealer with 1 trump + two aces. I don't know if I buy it tho. I still bet that the passing range of a really good P here is gonna be mostly stopper hands and euchre hands, and in that case the dealer is still better off calling the best he has, which translates to calling hearts.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:47 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:23 pm
Score is 0-0. Dealer upcard is the (Card_10-S)

Dealer: (Card_A-S) (Card_A-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-D)

Seat 1: (Card_Q-S) (Card_J-S) (Card_K-H) (Card_J-H) (Card_A-D)

Seat 2: (Card_9-S) (Card_Q-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_K-C) (Card_9-C)

Seat 3: (Card_K-S) (Card_K-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_A-C)
Wes (aka the legend) wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:23 pm
Bonus question: If the dealer passes spades and Seat 1 calls hearts will he make it or get euchred? Assume everyone plays well.
Mxx wrote: ↑
Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:03 pm
Bonus. It's euchre time as the opposition has diamonds and spades covered. I know what you're getting at Wes, you are advocating a double trump lead to make your teams aces good. It works in this situation but is it a good strategy in general?
Double leading trump is NOT a good strategy in general, but it becomes mandatory in certain particular cases. And THIS is one of those cases. Look what just happened on the Hero's first lead. He leads the right, Seat 2 plays a low trump (9H), your partner shows he has no trump, and the dealer plays another low trump (TH). After this action you'll usually be in serious trouble when you've called with just two trump. There's 3 trump unaccounted for, and after your opponents both played a low trump, there is a great chance that each of them both have a trump left. Your team's best chance out of this precarious situation is for you to lead trump again in an attempt to yet again take out two of your enemy's trump with one lead. Yes this line will cause you to lose control of the hand, but that's a risk you gotta take becuz if you don't double lead trump here the odds that your enemy will pick you apart are just too high. So the answer is if Seat 1 calls hearts, assuming everyone plays well, Seat 1 will NOT get euchred.

But what if Seat 1 doesn't double lead trump, is he for sure dead? Well let's play it out (blue = good guys take the trick, red = bad guys take the trick):

Trick 1:

Seat 1 leads the (Card_J-H)
Seat 2 plays the (Card_9-H)
Seat 3 plays the (Card_K-D)
Seat 4 plays the (Card_10-H)


Trick 2:

Seat 1 plays the (Card_A-D)
Seat 2 trumps it with the (Card_Q-H)
Seat 3 plays the (Card_10-D)
Seat 4 plays the (Card_9-D)


Trick 3:

Given that trumps already been lead once and knowing that the (Card_A-S) is most likely in the enemy's hand given the first rd action, Seat 2 leads the (Card_9-C) to promote his Kc.
Seat 3 plays the (Card_A-C)
Seat 4 plays the (Card_10-C)
Seat 1 plays the (Card_J-S)


Trick 4:

Crucially, Seat 3 plays the boss (Card_Q-D) to force out enemy trump and to give his partner a chance to get rid of a loser card.
Seat 4 trumps in with the (Card_A-H)
Seat 1 throws away the (Card_Q-S)
Seat 2 throws away the (Card_9-S)


Trick 5:

Seat 4 plays the (Card_A-S)
Seat 1 trumps it with the (Card_K-H)
Seat 2 plays the (Card_K-C)
Seat 3 plays the (Card_K-S)

A heart call still makes it. The good guys get 3 tricks!

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:59 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:47 am
Trick 4:

Crucially, Seat 3 plays the boss (Card_Q-D) to force out enemy trump and to give his partner a chance to get rid of a loser card.
Seat 4 trumps in with the (Card_A-H)
Seat 1 throws away the (Card_Q-S)
Seat 2 throws away the (Card_9-S)

A heart call still makes it. The good guys get 3 tricks!
BTW the crux of the hand was Seat 3 being a strong enough player to understand that double leading diamonds with a boss (Card_Q-D) on trick 4--after trump has already been led--is a much better lead than a fresh suit non-boss (Card_K-S) . If seat 3 instead leads with the (Card_K-S) your team is euchred.

Richardb02
Posts: 581
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Location: Florida

Unread post by Richardb02 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:44 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote: ↑
Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:47 pm
Richardb02 wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:03 pm
I suggest that S1 should order in Round 1. Lead the Right. Follow with the Ad. Follow with the Jh. Take trick 3 with the Qs.
Never order from Seat 1, 1st round when you have a viable 2nd round hand. Never forget Seat 1's great privilege of getting first option in the 2nd round. Don't waste it. Also, in this case you have more than a viable 2nd round hand. Crossing the river with a 2nd rd hearts call with [(Right + King) + singleton short ace] is actually a better call than challenging the dealer with [(Right + Queen) + a singleton green ace]. Calling spades here with this hand--giving the enemy a trump and knowing the dealer now gets to create a void--when you have a better call in the 2nd rd is actually an egregious mistake. Don't do it.
I'm back! I passed my Financial Exam. So if anyone wants a Euchre playing, stock, mutual fund and other financial instrument advisor, let me know.

I take exemption Wes "you should never order from Seat 1, 1st Round," and is actually an egregious mistake." I appreciate the debate though!

My analysis, using my BPS, 1st Round:
0.25 Value of Seat 1
1.00 Value of Rs (Right spade, Jack spade)
0.50 Value of Qs (Queen spade)
0.75 Value of Ad, Singleton Green Ace
0.25 Value of Club Void
2.75 Value of hand, Seat & Round. (2.25 min. to order)

BPS analysis using my BPS, 2nd Round, Guided by OE:
0.50 Seat 1, Round Value
1.00 Value of Rh (Right heart, Jack heart)
0.50 Value of Kh (King heart)
0.50 Value of Ad, Singleton Black Ace
0.25 Void in Clubs
2.75 Value of hand, (2.25 min to order), same as Round 1

So, as you might say Wes, "I have no disrespect for passing on Round 1." I get it. I would even give you a tie breaker for playing for 2 points vs. ordering in Round 1 and playing for 2 points! But "never" and "egregious"?! Too strong.

Will you be available for a game Monday December 30th at 9PM on Mayra's website? I can't make Monday December 23. I am scheduled for a left hip replacement!

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:03 pm

Richardb02 wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:44 pm
Wes (aka the legend) wrote: ↑
Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:47 pm
Richardb02 wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:03 pm
I suggest that S1 should order in Round 1. Lead the Right. Follow with the Ad. Follow with the Jh. Take trick 3 with the Qs.
Never order from Seat 1, 1st round when you have a viable 2nd round hand. Never forget Seat 1's great privilege of getting first option in the 2nd round. Don't waste it. Also, in this case you have more than a viable 2nd round hand. Crossing the river with a 2nd rd hearts call with [(Right + King) + singleton short ace] is actually a better call than challenging the dealer with [(Right + Queen) + a singleton green ace]. Calling spades here with this hand--giving the enemy a trump and knowing the dealer now gets to create a void--when you have a better call in the 2nd rd is actually an egregious mistake. Don't do it.
I'm back! I passed my Financial Exam. So if anyone wants a Euchre playing, stock, mutual fund and other financial instrument advisor, let me know.

I take exemption Wes "you should never order from Seat 1, 1st Round," and is actually an egregious mistake." I appreciate the debate though!

My analysis, using my BPS, 1st Round:
0.25 Value of Seat 1
1.00 Value of Rs (Right spade, Jack spade)
0.50 Value of Qs (Queen spade)
0.75 Value of Ad, Singleton Green Ace
0.25 Value of Club Void
2.75 Value of hand, Seat & Round. (2.25 min. to order)

BPS analysis using my BPS, 2nd Round, Guided by OE:
0.50 Seat 1, Round Value
1.00 Value of Rh (Right heart, Jack heart)
0.50 Value of Kh (King heart)
0.50 Value of Ad, Singleton Black Ace
0.25 Void in Clubs
2.75 Value of hand, (2.25 min to order), same as Round 1

So, as you might say Wes, "I have no disrespect for passing on Round 1." I get it. I would even give you a tie breaker for playing for 2 points vs. ordering in Round 1 and playing for 2 points! But "never" and "egregious"?! Too strong.

Will you be available for a game Monday December 30th at 9PM on Mayra's website? I can't make Monday December 23. I am scheduled for a left hip replacement!
I do believe crossing the river in hearts with [(Right + King) + a singleton short Ace] is a better call than challenging the dealer with [(Right + Queen) + a singleton green Ace]. Giving the enemy a trump + the fact they now get to create a void is a HUGE factor here. But you know what I can't prove that claim, but the thing is even if I'm wrong I'm right.

What I mean is even if a hearts call is in fact worse than a spade call, ordering in the first round when you have a viable pathway in the 2nd round is still a large mistake. That 2nd round call can be significantly worse than your first round call due to the fact that by passing in the first rd you get the benefit of trapping the dealer's team should they order. IOW the value of a potential Hearts call is not just the Hearts hand itself.

The real value is: [the intrinsic value of the Hearts hand itself + all those times you euchre your enemy by passing spades + all those times you don't euchre your enemy but would've gotten euchred yourself had you ordered spades]. There's no way this spades call can come close to that aggregate value. That's why a Hearts call can be significantly worse than a Spades call but still be a WAY better option. And that's why ordering in the first round when you have a viable option in the 2nd round is a large mistake, a cardinal sin of Seat 1 play. The main exception being 9-9 scenarios. Now your team doesn't get any benefit from euchring your opponents, and there's virtually no cost to your team getting euchred (presumably you would lose the game either way). In theory, now you can simply compare the intrinsic value of a first round call--factoring in the fact that youre giving the enemy a trump and that they get to create a void--vs a 2nd round call.

Example of a 9-9 situation:

Upcard: (Card_9-C), and you're in the 1 seat with:

(Card_A-C) (Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-S)

At 0-0 I'm passing and trapping, and calling next in the 2nd round. At 9-9, I have to order clubs becuz clubs is intrinsically better than a spade call despite the fact that I'm giving my enemy a trump + a void.

Another perhaps more controversial hand example of not ordering in the first round becuz we have a viable option in the 2nd round:

Score is 0-0. Upcard is the (Card_K-C). You're in the 1 seat with:

(Card_A-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_J-D) (Card_10-D)

Ordering in the first round would be a mistake. Try to get your cake and eat it too. Trap in the first round and call diamonds in the 2nd rd. Notice that players who take Hoyle too religiously would totally screw this spot up.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:10 pm

Richardb02 wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:44 pm
Will you be available for a game Monday December 30th at 9PM on Mayra's website? I can't make Monday December 23. I am scheduled for a left hip replacement!
Unfortunately, not being single and living with my gf impedes my freedom and severely hinders my ability to predict the future in this regard. All I can say is if I'm free I will check this out. Good luck with your hip replacement. No complications!

Tbolt65
Posts: 487
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Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:27 am

I"m in agreement with Wes here on that first round hand for Seat 1 at the current score which it was initially set up for. For all the reasons Wes highlighted in his latest post. Its an unnecessary call when you have a good bagging hand from seat 1. With places to go if its get turned down. I think even passing second round is even a better play than ordering in the first round. Now would I pass in the second round? Prob. not unless I got some kinda read on my opponents with their play styles and tendencies or lack their of. There is a time and a place for everything. But ordering up in the first seat at this score is not one of them.

Tbolt65
Edward

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