Minimum to order 1st round 2nd seat

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jblowery
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 am

Minimum to order 1st round 2nd seat

Unread post by jblowery » Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:33 pm

Let's say the upward is (Card_K-H) ie an average card. What do you need to have at a minimum to order that up? Here are some examples. Assume other cards are junk. Trying to keep this simple.

(Card_J-H) (Card_10-H)
(Card_Q-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_A-S)
(Card_A-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_A-S)
(Card_Q-H) (Card_A-S) (Card_A-C)

How about ordering up the right?



Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:25 pm

jblowery wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:33 pm
Let's say the upward is (Card_K-H) ie an average card. What do you need to have at a minimum to order that up?
For all recommendations assume score is 0-0.

1) Right + 1 and nothing else is a must order. E.G:

(Card_J-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_10-C) (Card_10-D) (Card_10-S)

If you have everything blocked I think it's close but I'm still ordering with:

(Card_J-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_9-D) (Card_J-S) (Card_10-C)

I don't pass Right + 1 unless I have a euchre hand (everything blocked + approx 2 tricks in every suit.

2) I think Left + 1 + an off Ace is a must order when you only block 1 out of the 3 remaining 2nd rd suits. E.G:

(Card_J-D) (Card_9-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_10-S)

If you have a stopper hand (block all suits) then pass with Left + 1 and an off ace. If you block 2 out of the 3 remaining suits (which will usually mean you also have a place to go in the 2nd rd I think it's close between passing and calling. I usually pass, but I'm not sure about it. E.G.

(Card_J-D) (Card_9-H) (Card_A-S) (Card_J-S) (Card_9-D)

You have a place to go in the 2nd round (spades), and you have a next call in big trouble. I usually pass in that spot. This becomes an even better pass if Seat 1 calls next aggressively, probably a mandatory pass in that case. If your team is up 9-5 tho, call this in the first round. Don't take any chances when you don't block all suits and you have a decent chance to close out and getting euchred is no big deal up 9-5. Same deal if you have a big lead, call this. At 0-0, I'm passing. If someone advocated for calling this hand at 0-0, I wouldn't argue with them. I think it's close.

3) This hand is a call or a loner imo:

(Card_J-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_A-S)

It's arguably the best spot to run this 1 trump loner play given that by being in the 2 seat you get to take out your P's trump. Knowing a trump is out of play is probably more important than having the lead with this hand. If down 9-6 this is a MUST loner. At 0-0 I think it's at least a MUST call, and I would never fault my P if he went alone.

4) This hand is right out on the edge, but I always wonder about it. Say you have:

(Card_A-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_A-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-C)

I suspect that 2 non-bower + 2 off aces may be an order from the 2 spot when you block nothing, but I really don't know. I've talked to Edward (tbolt) about this hand and he says it's not an order if your partner is competent, and I'm just not sure. This call will certainly block your P's loner more than you'd like but I think it's possible that cost is overrated. At the very least, if youre playing with some random on your phone odds are your P is not very good which pushes this hand into the order category most of the time. Also remember you have to loosen up at certain scores when you can close out like say your team is up 9-6. Now you gotta order this up no matter what the nature of your P is. You block nothing in the 2nd round and you have a decent chance to win the game now and a euchre isn't catastrophic. Go for it. Don't allow any 2nd round shenanigans in that spot. Same if youre up say 8-5. You don't even have to worry about blocking your P's loner at that score.

4) Another edge hand I wonder about, say you have just the Right + 2 aces but you block nothing in the 2nd round:

(Card_J-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-S)

I think this is at least a call at 0-0 if your partner isn't that good. With a competent partner it's much closer. Just remember tho that this is a MUST call up 9-6/8-5.

Example of 2 seat hands that become a call at say up 9-5 or up 8-3:

(Card_10-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_K-C) (Card_9-D)

(Card_J-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_K-C) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S)

Probably even:

(Card_10-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_10-C) (Card_10-D) (Card_10-S)

You're team still has 3 guaranteed trump + a void from your P so it's not hopeless, just need a little bit more luck to pull this off. I'm not taking the risk of letting this hand get to the 2nd rd. Too dangerous to me. Better to gamble in the first round and remember a euchre isn't that costly at those scores.

irishwolf
Posts: 700
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:00 pm

NOT good to call those other two cards Junk! They matter significantly are they a doubleton, giving you a void or two singletons? An off suit like a K & 9/10 or even a Q & 9/10 might catch a trick as well.

"Assume other cards are junk. Trying to keep this simple."

I surely hope 2nd seat is not counting the K upcard as a trick? Not your card just one of 7. I say Never count the upcard as a potential trick.

What also matters is my partner the dealer. If he is good and picks it up on a weak hand or does he/she call only with stronger hands. Makes a difference'.

It also makes a difference as to eldest. I love to lead trump from 1st seat when 2nd orders weak as a pattern, especially with K or A as the up card. I see plenty of euchres here! LOL

~Irishwolf

jspectre
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:04 am

Unread post by jspectre » Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:12 pm

With no 2nd round plays I would order up any of those scenarios to my partner. I need a bit more to order the right, but I'm not going to let them pass on it if we could reasonably make our point with what's in my hand and possibly an extra trump or ace from my partner. Now, if I have a partner I can actually trust, this would all look much different.

irishwolf
Posts: 700
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:04 am

If a Jack is the upcard and you are my partner and you are my partner, NEVER Never assist me even with three trumps.

~Irishwolf

jspectre
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:04 am

Unread post by jspectre » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:59 am

@irishwolf - If your partner has 3 trump and doesn't call, surely you could end up making a bad pass in certain scenarios. There's plenty of times I don't have another trump, but if I have an ace or two I'll give it a shot if I can't block next, but are you still picking up the right when you have an entirely black hand or when you have no trump, but have next blocked? Don't you need your partner to communicate that he has an unusually strong hand in this situation? However, if the situation requires a loner, then I can certainly see a case for passing with 3 trump.

irishwolf
Posts: 700
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:57 am

When way behind, If a Jack is the upcard and you are my partner and you are my partner, NEVER Never assist me even with three trumps.

RedDuke
Posts: 393
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Unread post by RedDuke » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:28 pm

jspectre wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:59 am
@irishwolf - If your partner has 3 trump and doesn't call, surely you could end up making a bad pass in certain scenarios. There's plenty of times I don't have another trump, but if I have an ace or two I'll give it a shot if I can't block next, but are you still picking up the right when you have an entirely black hand or when you have no trump, but have next blocked? Don't you need your partner to communicate that he has an unusually strong hand in this situation? However, if the situation requires a loner, then I can certainly see a case for passing with 3 trump.
If a jack is the upcard, I'm picking up if I've got another trump or something like 2 aces and only the right. Unless I literally have nothing in my hand, I'm picking up the jack.

If I'm the dealer and I'm holding something like this:

(Card_9-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-S) (Card_9-H) (Card_10-H)

and the upcard is (Card_J-D)

then maybe I'd pass, in which case you'd have a good reason to order me up if you've got some serious strength in diamonds. But such hands are few and far between. In most cases, if the upcard is a jack, your partner is going to pick up if he's got any chance at all that something else in his hand can take a trick... even if its just a green ace. If I've got a reasonable chance of taking three tricks and we are way behind then I'm going to go alone and take the chance.

Example. You're my partner and the upcard is (Card_J-D) .

I'm the dealer holding this:

(Card_9-D) (Card_A-S) (Card_K-S) (Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C)

I might actually try this one as a loner if we're way behind. If you've actually got three trumps in your hand, then I've got a reasonable chance of making the loner sweep with this. Even if I don't, the hand will probably still make at least one point and I probably wouldn't have done any better had you ordered me up.

So in most cases, if your side is down by a lot and there's a jack upcard you don't want to order your partner up unless you're certain that you've got one of those partners that won't try a loner unless he's got a perfect hand. If the score is much closer to even though, I wouldn't get upset if you ordered me up with three trump.

jspectre
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:04 am

Unread post by jspectre » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:47 pm

Sure, if we need the loner, then I'm going to pray you have it or are at least smart enough to pick it up, but under neutral scores I think it's a mistake to not order the right with 3. Maybe it's rare for you, but I have plenty of times where I don't have another trump in my hand, but I have a green ace if I'm lucky. If I block next either with A9 or I have just the left, I'm hesitant to order up the right into what could easily be someone with a euchre hand, seeing as no one likes to order up jacks. Unless we can only win with a loner, I'll never begrudge my partner for ordering with 3 trump. Now, ordering with one small trump and the left is a call only made if you can't trust your partner, and has definitely blocked several of my loners, so that's another story entirely.

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