jspectre wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:54 pm
This is an automatic call for me at any score.
You went too far imo. Can't make this risky call up 9-8, and down 9-8 you need to gamble and go for the euchre. 8-8 is debatable. I side with passing since an opponent euchre can still win us the game, but it wouldn't shock me if a hypothetical simulation proved calling is better given our dire 2nd rd prospects.
jspectre wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:54 pm
Your only play after that gets turned over is a hearts call that amounts to little more than a guess, and you would have to lead hearts because you have only spades for non-trump suits. You could try and play next here, but you only have a very weak tripleton K of spades to offer, your partner would have to have both bowers and possibly another trick.
I think crossing the river with 2 low trump and a dirty boss card is better than calling Next with no trump and a dirty boss card. So I call hearts too, but ofc this is ultimately a math problem.
jspectre wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:54 pm
Passing this hand into diamonds is extremely dangerous, and there's no guarantee they weren't waiting for a next call, as you possess no strength in clubs. The only correct play is to call in this situation.
I strongly agree. Hands like this illustrate why Seat 1 is the most important Seat in the game. Seat 1 essentially controls the game. Seat 1 gets to decide what loners get through in the first rd and the 2nd round. Seat 1 is basically the quarterback of the team, the game manager so to speak. Seat 1 doesn't get the luxury of just playing his cards, being on level zero autopilot mode, passing becuz he doesn't like his hand or passing becuz the prospects of a euchre are higher than he'd like. Seat 1 can't think selfishly like that, he HAS to do what's best for his team because that's
his job. And part of Seat 1's job is to make tough calls like the OP's hand to protect his team.
jspectre wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:54 pm
I daresay it's the correct move even from 3rd seat, let alone 1st, given how most partners play the game.
You went to far imo. The problem with ordering this in 3rd is you'll create too many negative 1 point swings (you get euchred when the dealer would've picked up or you scratch out a point when the dealer would've picked up), negative 3 point swings (you get euchred when the dealer would've passed and your partner had a 1 point 2nd round call or your call scores a point, but your partner had a 2nd round loner sweep), negative 4 point swings (you get euchred when your partner had a 2 point call, and the vaunted negative 6 point swing (you get euchred when your partner was sitting on a 2nd round loner, a possibility that goes up when you have no bowers in your hand). These swings add up to the point where even with an amateur partner I don't think we should force it in third at most scores.
HOWEVER, if we are up 9-x where x = 7 or less, and our partner doesn't play the 2nd round well like 99% of all euchre players, I think ordering is the correct play. Ordering still has a chance to score a point and close out the game, we prevent any 2nd round miracles from Seat 2, and if we're euchred we still have a strong advantage (2-1 favs at 9-9 on our deal) even in the worst case scenario. One could make this same argument if we have a big lead, but at a neutral score, I don't think it's worth it.
jspectre wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:54 pm
However, if you give me 2 trash cards like a 9 of diamonds, Q of hearts, I would be way more hesitant to call that, even if I have nowhere to go in the 2nd round. In that situation you're practically donating, so only call that or call next afterward if you can't allow the opponents to call in this situation.
My way of thinking is the exact opposite of this, becuz our 2nd round prospects are now even worse (in the first scenario we at least had 2 low trump + a dirty boss suit, now we basically have to call next with no trump and a dirty boss suit) we should feel even more compelled to call in the first round and make this semi-donate.