Next Bid From Third Seat

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RedDuke
Posts: 393
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Next Bid From Third Seat

Unread post by RedDuke » Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:24 am

What's the best way to play a hand like this?

I'm in third seat holding this:

(Card_J-H) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_J-D) (Card_A-D)

Upcard is the (Card_A-S) . Score is 2-0 in their favor.

Everybody passes. My partner calls clubs and leads the (Card_Q-S) . That lead alone is a pretty sure sign that either he's a moron or he made a very thin call and is hoping that I have some strength in clubs.

How would you guys play this hand to reduce the chances of being euchred?

Before anyone asks, I'd have gone alone in hearts if it would have gotten to me.



Tbolt65
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Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:19 am

Well don't throw the Ace of hearts here. Gives too much info out. You have no trump. So I would first throw the jack of diamond followed by the jack of hearts and throwing off hearts until one of your suits come. If it comes down to your last two cards. At this point you would of have to be paying attention to who has the lead or will be in the lead and determine which Ace to keep based on what's been played thus far. I take this opening line due to you don't want to tell everyone that you have hearts right away. Make them guess.

Tbolt65
Edward

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:45 pm

I would toss the AH to let you partner know you have the KH. It might look like a bad but not so as the opponents will more than likely come to your AD. You should keep the AD guarded with the JD off suit. This is in case the dealer wins the first trick, he is not going to lead clubs (trump), probably diamonds (he might have KD + one D. If eldest trumps the diamond trick, you still have the AD for later. If you play the JD you might lose the opportunity for the AD to win a trick. I at least want my AD to pull a trick and it best to keep it guarded.

Just how I would play it.

jspectre
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:04 am

Unread post by jspectre » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:15 pm

I agree with Irishwolf, toss the Ace of hearts away. Judging from that lead, our partner is either a bad player or someone with all spades as non-trump cards, who is trying to salvage the opportunity. One thing is for sure, they need all the help they can get, and knowing you have hearts covered is vital information. What happens when you throw a low diamond and after trumping that Q of spades, 1st seat leads back a heart that your partner then tries to trump, or even worse, they get over trumped because hearts are in short supply. I've had that situation happen too many times to risk not giving away the info on hearts. I'll do the same on my opponents call if my partner is making a play for the euchre, I want them to know that I either have that suit covered or I'm now void in it so I can trump over the dealer, it's up to them to use that information wisely.

The most likely scenario here is that your partner has a strong hand and is just making a terrible first lead.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:43 pm

Never lead what was turned down until trump has been led!

Yes, Bozzo is in the house!

EXCEPTION - there are exceptions. Say I have KS and QS with the hand AS went down. If I also hold JC 10C 9C, I want to have one of the opponents trump my KS lead. Now they have to come to my void in hearts or diamonds. I will trump with the 9C, then lead my JC, followed by the QS. I still have the 10C. This ploy I will make my point without my partner's help.

This is a secret, don't tell anyone, Ha Ha!

~Irishwolf

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:48 pm

Oh, I should have also said, if 2nd seat trumps, my Partner may win the next trick and I can void the QA. Of if the dealer wins it and leads H's or D's and I get over trumped, I still have the JC 10C and QS.

Almost euchre proof! I have options with or without my partner!

~Irishwolf

jspectre
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:04 am

Unread post by jspectre » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:12 pm

@irishwolf

I believe I would just take the initiative and lead trump with that hand. I have a QK combo that is boss once I get rid of trump, and I'm expecting my partner to have the J of spades. If that was buried my low trump lead will go to waste unless they also have the Ace, but I still have a second trump to pick up from my voided suits, then a 2nd trump lead and a boss KQ combo to finish, it's almost sure to work, and in the event it doesn't, I can always hope my partner has an ace remaining, now that I have cleared out all the trump. In most scenarios I'm just going alone here and hoping one lead with the right takes care of the opponents trump, from there I'll just lead my spades, and even if someone else has 3 trump, I'll still be safe.

irishwolf
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:14 am

You way will good most of the time but could lead to being euchred when both opponents have two trumps each. You lead the JC and now all their trump is bigger than your 9C & 10C.

My way better protects against that particular situation. I use the JC to protect my small trumps.

~Irishwolf

jspectre
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Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:04 am

Unread post by jspectre » Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:21 am

Yeah, that's why I said I would lead low unless I'm going alone. That's simply because I question whether I can take all the tricks without my partner and his left, assuming he has it. At any score besides 8 or 9 I would probably go alone here, but if I bring my partner then I'm going to lead low and see if I can make use of him. Personally, I don't play around rare situations that could get me euchred, I play the odds and if I'm extremely unlucky, then so be it.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:58 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:19 am
Well don't throw the Ace of hearts here. Gives too much info out. You have no trump. So I would first throw the jack of diamond followed by the jack of hearts and throwing off hearts until one of your suits come.
To clarify a bit, what Edward/Tbolt65 is really saying here is when it's clear your partner, the maker, is not gonna take the first trick don't throw the (Card_A-H). However if our partner had led the Right bower, then I think we can all agree that throwing the Ah is our best move. Giving information away to our opponents now doesn't hurt us when our partner still has the lead. Generally I tend to agree with Edward in this regard but I don't strongly agree because I just don't really know. It is hard to know if the cost of giving away information to our opponents is greater than the value of information we are also giving to our partner.

So for example, say I have (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_Q-D) (Card_Q-S)

And my partner calls clubs and leads the (Card_J-C)

Like I said above, I will throw the (Card_A-H) letting him know I have hearts covered. We all get this.

But if my partner leads the (Card_Q-C) I will throw off the (Card_9-H) which weakly tells my partner I have hearts covered without giving information away to my opponents. That's the approach me and Edward have set up when we're partners, but I often wonder if I'm just better off throwing the (Card_A-H) anyways. I just don't know if the cost of giving information away to the enemy is greater than the benefit of letting my partner know for sure what suit I have covered. Maybe in this example I'm better off throwing the 9h on the first lead becuz Edward knows what that means, but what about when I'm playing with a random on the phone? They tend to know what the Ah means but not what the 9h means.

Irishwolf & jspectre, would you guys still throw the Ah off on the first lead with my example hand if your partner led the Qc with a random partner? Do you think the convention me and Edward have set up (throwing off the 9h instead of the Ah when it's clear our P is not gonna win the first lead) is worth the trouble?
irishwolf wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:45 pm
I would toss the AH to let you partner know you have the KH. It might look like a bad but not so as the opponents will more than likely come to your AD. You should keep the AD guarded with the JD off suit. This is in case the dealer wins the first trick, he is not going to lead clubs (trump), probably diamonds (he might have KD + one D. If eldest trumps the diamond trick, you still have the AD for later. If you play the JD you might lose the opportunity for the AD to win a trick. I at least want my AD to pull a trick and it best to keep it guarded.
jspectre wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:15 pm
I agree with Irishwolf, toss the Ace of hearts away. Judging from that lead, our partner is either a bad player or someone with all spades as non-trump cards, who is trying to salvage the opportunity. One thing is for sure, they need all the help they can get, and knowing you have hearts covered is vital information. What happens when you throw a low diamond and after trumping that Q of spades, 1st seat leads back a heart that your partner then tries to trump, or even worse, they get over trumped because hearts are in short supply. I've had that situation happen too many times to risk not giving away the info on hearts. I'll do the same on my opponents call if my partner is making a play for the euchre, I want them to know that I either have that suit covered or I'm now void in it so I can trump over the dealer, it's up to them to use that information wisely.
These are some excellent posts. Even though I tend to agree with Edward's approach, I think irishwolf and jspectre are correct in this specific spot. I would say to Edward even if you are right, RedDuke's hand would be an exception.

(Card_J-H) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_J-D) (Card_A-D)

And why is that? becuz of the other Ace!

Whatever theoretical information cost there is, that's gotta almost be completely nullified by having the other Ace. Plus this can also be another excellent opportunity to legally communicate. For example, if me and Edward are partners and I play the Ah on a garbage lead, Edward can now immediately know I have two aces! since I normally would play the 9h on a non-Right bower lead, weakly telling him I have hearts covered.
jspectre wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:15 pm
The most likely scenario here is that your partner has a strong hand and is just making a terrible first lead.
I agree. For the fun of it I tried to think of 1 hand example where that lead could be justified. Here's what I came up with:

If the dealer turns down the (Card_A-S) and I call Next and lead a garbage spade you could pretty much know my entire hand. It would be something like this:

(Card_J-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S)

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:07 pm

jspectre wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:21 am
Yeah, that's why I said I would lead low unless I'm going alone. That's simply because I question whether I can take all the tricks without my partner and his left, assuming he has it. At any score besides 8 or 9 I would probably go alone here, but if I bring my partner then I'm going to lead low and see if I can make use of him. Personally, I don't play around rare situations that could get me euchred, I play the odds and if I'm extremely unlucky, then so be it.
I'm going alone at all scores with this hand except at 8/9. I don't care what the risks are. This hand nets 4 points too often to care. Right + 2 + no gap in our effective suited ace is a premium holding in my book. Don't waste it. If we have 9, I think calling and leading a low trump is our best approach although Irishwolf's line is intriguing to me. I certainly appreciate his thought process.

The real grey area tho is when we have 8. I think it's best to call and lead the Right. Yes this line will get euchred slightly more than the "play it safe" line, but at 8 with a decently strong hand I wanna take the line that maximizes my team's chance to close out the game. Hopefully that makes up for the slightly extra euchre cost. I think it does but who knows.

jspectre
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:04 am

Unread post by jspectre » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:27 am

@Wes

If my partner leads low I will still toss the AH if 2nd seat is going to win, otherwise I will wait and see if first seat is going to lead me a heart. Generally when you make this play you have 3 cards in that suit, sometimes you have the AK combo, but a lot of the time I seem to have a tripleton ace. Now, if I have a green AK combo I'm not going to toss either card, I'm going to hope for a chance to make them both good, and trust my p not to trump a trick that could be my ace, if he can't afford to do so.

As for why to throw out the AH and give that info to the enemy. I have essentially taken that card out of the playing field. My partner can play off if they lead it, and now they have to try and beat the maker in suits he is better equipped to deal with. Knowing I have a trick in hearts covered is much more valuable to my team than it is for the enemy. When I'm the dealer I want to know that my partner can likely only offer help in a single suit. Now, I don't have to guess where he can help me, and I can play accordingly and not waste his boss K.

As for what to lead on 8 if we're calling next, I think with such a low holding in trump that our best odds are leading low. If we take out our partners left or ace (if left is buried) then we can get beaten by any 2 trump combo, because our other 2 trump are so weak. If we can hit our partner and lead trump back then we're almost guaranteed to take 2 points, however. Sometimes that left is just buried, but a lot of the time my p has it as well, and only that card.

RedDuke
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Unread post by RedDuke » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:26 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:07 pm
jspectre wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:21 am
Yeah, that's why I said I would lead low unless I'm going alone. That's simply because I question whether I can take all the tricks without my partner and his left, assuming he has it. At any score besides 8 or 9 I would probably go alone here, but if I bring my partner then I'm going to lead low and see if I can make use of him. Personally, I don't play around rare situations that could get me euchred, I play the odds and if I'm extremely unlucky, then so be it.
I'm going alone at all scores with this hand except at 8/9. I don't care what the risks are. This hand nets 4 points too often to care. Right + 2 + no gap in our effective suited ace is a premium holding in my book. Don't waste it. If we have 9, I think calling and leading a low trump is our best approach although Irishwolf's line is intriguing to me. I certainly appreciate his thought process.

The real grey area tho is when we have 8. I think it's best to call and lead the Right. Yes this line will get euchred slightly more than the "play it safe" line, but at 8 with a decently strong hand I wanna take the line that maximizes my team's chance to close out the game. Hopefully that makes up for the slightly extra euchre cost. I think it does but who knows.
With my hand, I'm going alone at any score, no exceptions. That's a near perfect loner in hearts. I never got to call it though because my partner called next.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1189
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:45 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:26 pm
With my hand, I'm going alone at any score, no exceptions. That's a near perfect loner in hearts. I never got to call it though because my partner called next.
Well I wouldn't go alone at 9 unless in a tournament. :)

I was actually talking about IrishWolf's hypothetical hand:

Dealer turns down the (Card_A-S). You're in the 1 seat with:

(Card_J-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_K-S) (Card_Q-S)

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